raises from LAGs -- call down vs. re-raise vs. fold

jb9 · #1 07-02-2005, 01:46 AM

I had three of these happen in a few minutes tonight and felt pretty uncomfortable about each one, so I thought I'd post them together. It was a different villain each time (but the same table).

In each hand, I had a pocket pair, was playing the hand straightforward, and was raised by a loose aggressive player who could easily be bluffing or have me beat. All three times, I just called down from that point on.

Against tighter or more passive players, I would feel better about folding (since they will often have a strong hand) or reraising (since they will fold or slow down if they don't have a solid hand). But against loose aggressive players, I feel less sure of how to proceed, thus I call down.

I guess what I'm wondering is are "bets saved by slowing down when you are beat" + "bets won by not folding to bluffs" greater than "bets not won by not getting in extra bets and raises when you have the best hand" + "bets lost calling down with the worst hand".

Here are the three hands that made me think of this. Any comments on these hands or the general idea of how to respond to raises from LAGs when you have TPTK or a pocket pair would be appreciated.

I hadn't played a long time at the table, but it was very loose, very aggressive, with players cold calling with J6, raising with 98o, etc. The villain in the first hand had just sat down, so no read (although it quickly became clear later that he was a LAG). The villains in the other 2 hands were definite LAGs.

HAND 1:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $3.
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO raises, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (11.66 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 13.66 BB

HAND 2:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, MP1 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero caps, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

HAND 3:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

joop · #2 07-02-2005, 08:02 AM

Hey there,

Firstly, I feel your pain. If the 3/6 games were anything like the 2/4 games last night, they were particularly fishy and aggressive. I had more bad beats and lost more BBs last night then any other session I've played. I don't have an answer to your questions, but I will give you my take on the hands.

Hand1 : Personally I call these down way too often, but the chance of villian semi-bluffing a flush draw is so slim at this level, I've found that when I am raised like this on the turn, my overpair is usually beaten, probably by 54 or 43 for 2pr, or a 6 for the straight. These idiots will call raises with anything.

Hand2 : I can comfortably fold this at 2/4, even if villian is a total LAG, I've been calling them down and you just end up losing, given that you only have second pair and the flush just hit. Villian's pre-flop 3bet, smooth call on the flop, then turn raise makes me think KK for a slow played set, or AK at the least, KJ is also a possibility.

Hand3 : This one I find a little trickier, since the board is pretty co-ordinated, villian could easily have 2pr, or 1pr and an OESD, or just the OESD. Given that villian is a LAG, I'm inclined to just call down, this way you lose the least when you're behind. Alternatively, you could 3bet and check-fold the turn if he caps. If he doesn't cap it, you could bet out on the turn and fold to a raise, especially given the 8 that puts 4 to a straight on the board. Tough hand.

Not sure how good my advice is, but that's what I would do. I'm going to try to find more folds to turn raises, even when villian is LAG, because as it stands I'm calling down way too much only to find I'm beat. Maybe my opinion is a bit tainted from the raping I suffered at the tables last night.

Cheers.

joop

jb9 · #3 07-03-2005, 11:46 AM

As I'm continuing to have the good fortune of finding tables with maniacs, I'm still a little lost as to whether passive-but-don't-fold vs. aggressive-but-sometimes-fold is a better approach with big pairs vs. players who will bet and raise any two.

Or maybe I'm just being too simplistic about this and it always depends on the situation too much to make general conclusions?

Anyway, since I posted 3 where I slowed down following the first raise, here is one where I didn't until the 2nd raise.

UTG+1 is a fairly typical, but not too bad, LAG. MP2 and UTG+2 are very loose, very aggressive, and play middle or bottom pair aggressively postflop.

HAND 4:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (18 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 raises, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (24 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 24 BB

Hybrid_11 · #4 07-03-2005, 12:58 PM

Hand 1 - I play the same your probably beat 90% of the time but its worth the check

Hand 2 - A fold is in order with an overcard and the flush out there he has one of them. Since you dont have the queen of spades you have no redraw so fold the turn and save yourself 2 BB

Hand 3 - Its close but im partial to 3-betting the flop. Other then that I play the rest of the hand the same way and expect to lose to two pair with the way the hand played out

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