Too cautious? Pair and flush draw meets turn raise

jtr · #1 10-20-2004, 10:02 PM

Hi, all.

The table in this hand is typical Party 2/4; the villain (button) seems to be a good player with sensible pre- and post-flop aggression, just a little loose preflop. My questions are really about whether I was too much of a wuss on the turn and river.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

I think I played this in a standard way preflop and on the flop.

Turn: (11 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

On the turn my flush draw arrives and with so many people still in the hand it seems worth betting for value. I'm happy with the results, I get raised which I don't mind but I don't reraise -- is this a mistake? I didn't want to put pressure on the remaining two callers (MP2 and MP3) to fold. Also I figure my equity right now is only about 20% as my pair of 8s are no good any more, so a reraise for value is not on.

River: (21 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Then on the river I am saved (or am I?) by an ace and make 2 pair. I considered playing the river aggressively but was concerned that the guy had a set or had exactly AQ. Weak tight thinking?

Final Pot: 24 BB
Main Pot: 24 BB, between Button, BB and Hero.

AceHigh · #2 10-20-2004, 10:34 PM

I like the way you played it until the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Then on the river I am saved (or am I?) by an ace and make 2 pair. I considered playing the river aggressively but was concerned that the guy had a set or had exactly AQ. Weak tight thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, too passive, bet or check/raise on the river. Especially with the extra player overcalling a check/raise would be an expert play here. You don't have to be correct half the time on the check/raise because the extra caller gives you extra pot equity. (Depending on button 3-betting hands, yada, yada, yada...)

private joker · #3 10-20-2004, 10:41 PM

And if the player is good, he would have raised preflop with AQ. I'd bet/raise that river.

jtr · #4 10-21-2004, 08:03 AM

Thanks for the comments. You are both right, I'm sure: this river should have been played more aggressively. I think I messed up because I was thinking of the flush draw as my way to win this, and when I got 2 pair instead I underestimated my strength on that board. (Plus I'm currently -25BB over the last 7000 hands and thus there was an irrational feeling that the set is always out there.)

Results: button had Q8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], a hand that surprised me a bit but shouldn't have as it's within the range of my original read on him. Other guy (BB) had Q2, so we all had two pair and my 2 were best. A check-raise on the river would have been a fantastic EV move.

TheHip41 · #5 10-21-2004, 10:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Then on the river I am saved (or am I?) by an ace and make 2 pair. I considered playing the river aggressively but was concerned that the guy had a set or had exactly AQ. Weak tight thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got to do more than this on the river. You hit one of your 10000 outs, why check call? I think I'd bet out to trap the players between me and the button. If I get raised, I might just call down. Or, If you think the button will bet, c/r his @ss. If you think he has a set, check/fold the river [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Fat Nicky · #6 10-21-2004, 11:07 AM

Pre-flop & Flop: Fine

Turn: Betting out and calling a raise is fine. Your 8s are probably no longer good, but, you're drawing to the nuts and you have additional outs in 2 8s and 3 As. Call the raise and keep the players that already put 1 bet in on the turn in the hand.

River: You're ahead here more than you think. If you are behind, it's to a small set and not AQ. The only decision is calling for overcalls or raising. A big advantage of calling for overcalls is not getting 3-bet. But, since there are 2 limpers before you, there is not much positive EV in this when you're ahead. So, in conclusion, since you're ahead most of the time, I'd raise the river with the hopes of getting coldcalled by one of the remaining players and by both players who already have one bet in on the river.

bdk3clash · #7 10-21-2004, 11:19 AM

Everything is good about this hand until the initial river check. On the turn, I don't see what 3-betting accomplishes other than potentially dropping MP2 and MP3, which probably isn't something you want with a hand that's likely behind at this point but that has many outs to pull ahead.

On the river, I prefer just betting out for a few reasons. Checkraising the button makes it less likely you'll collect overcalls from MP2 and MP3.

Also, for a player that didn't raise preflop and raised the turn on a Q-high board, there's little chance that A helped him, and you definitely don't want to see this one checked behind.

So I'd greatly prefer a river bet. Having checked, you have a clear checkraise. He isn't likely to have AQ here. (Yeah, I saw the results, but I didn't think he had AQ before I saw them.) You've got the second-nut two pair.