Need Help On Home Game Ethical Issue Re Markers!!!

Knockwurst · #1 09-30-2004, 12:06 PM

Background: I'm one of the regulars, who has helped keep an office home game going for the last couple of years. The game is a bunch of lawyers playing a pretty friendly dealer's choice game (I know lawyers, friendly, oxymoron, etc.). The weekly game has become more of a monthly game over the last nine months, and I've been only making every other session during that time, as I've left the office and have other commitments.

The most you can win or lose in a night is about $300. I'm up overall by a fair margain, but I've had my share of losing nights -- even up to $200 or 300 maybe a handful of times overall. We have an informal marker system, where if someone runs out of cash a marker is written out. The marker is a post it with their name and the amount written on it, they don't sign it and only within the last six months have we begun dating the markers. The big winner for the night usually takes the outstanding markers and it's usually paid back by the next session. Also there are times when markers are paid back but the post it is not available to be torn up when the debt is settled.

Situation: Last night, a guy I'll call Bill, who originated the game, it's his chips, his cards, etc. (and who, incidently, was accused of cheating, peeking at cards during his deal in draw games, etc. and confronted by a number of players at one point, though he denied it)came up to me and showed me a $260 marker with my name on it. When I had recovered from the initial shock, I asked him when it was from because I honestly did not remember having any markers out. He told me it was from seven or eight months ago. Now this is someone I keep in contact with on a monthly basis, despite the cheating accusations from others, but he has never mentioned the marker until last night. I asked him why he didn't bring it up to me the last couple of times we played together and he said he forgot. Could the marker be legit? Yes. Could I have paid it off, and not gotten the marker from him? Yes. Could he have made up the marker out of the blue? It's possible.

In law, there's something called laches, which means if you sleep on your rights, you lose your rights. For example, if a person has a contract for delivery, and the delivery never comes, if the person then brings a breach of contract claim twenty years later, it may be dismissed based on laches even if there is no statute of limitations.

Legal theories aside, I have a professional relationship with some of the players in the game, and would hate to lose that relationship over this.

So what do I do? Do I pay off the marker and feel like an easy mark? Do I tell him to f*ck off, and feel like an a**hole? Or do I work out some sort of compromise?

Thanks for your help!

TenPercenter · #2 09-30-2004, 12:15 PM

I'd bring it up during the game so that everyone can hear. Bring it up light heartedly somehow, maybe while someone else is writing a marker with a date. Say something like "That reminds me, I'm glad we do dates now 'cause Bill has a marker that I can't remember giving. Do you guys remember that $260 marker? [wait for answers] Should I pay it?"

You'll get a feel from the group about what you should do to preserve your standing in the game. The game is apparently worth more than that the $260 marker.

Ten

Ghazban · #3 09-30-2004, 12:22 PM

How do markers come into being? If they get written out mid-hand, the other players in the game probably see them happening. I'd ask around and see if anybody else there has a recollection of you filling one out. If people do, you might need to just suck it up and pay it despite your not remembering having written one but, if nobody else ever remembers you making one, you have a little more evidence to go to the guy and tell him you don't think its legit.

Of course, any confrontational approach runs the risk of you not being able to play in this particular game any more (though, of course, you could form your own group with everyone but this guy but that's a whole different subject). If playing this game matters a lot to you, I'd say suck it up and pay the $260. Even if you're 100% positive you didn't write one, you might want to pay it for this reason. Regardless, I think you ought to make sure you never need to fill one out again (i.e. by bringing more than enough money with you to cover) so you won't have to go through this again.

submariner · #4 09-30-2004, 12:50 PM

I agree with what other posters have said, with one concern. If this marker is not legit, then if you pay it whats to stop this from happening again? Could you plan to have a near future game where everyone agrees to bring in all markers, verify them as much as possible, and agree that these are the only legit outstanding ones? And then of course get a better system of markers.

When I was in the Navy we had running games with various players coming in and out. We kept a log book of who was light and everyone had to settle once a month before they could play anymore. Maybe you could do something like that.

TenPercenter · #5 09-30-2004, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If this marker is not legit, then if you pay it whats to stop this from happening again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Require that the borrower signs and dates the marker from now on.

Ten

hustalasta · #6 09-30-2004, 01:28 PM

Could the marker be legit? Yes

Pay the marker off. You admit the marker may be legit so just bite the bullet and pay it off. Try not to second guess it and don't end up disgruntled because of it. Though I might at least ask the other players if Bill had produced long lost markers for other players.

In the future date and sign your markers, its for your protection as much as it is for the protection of the other players (thought that would be obvious to lawyers more-so than "common" folk). Just charge some poor schlep a few extra hours worth of billing and I'm sure you can make up your "lost" $260.

Just joking around with the Lawyer bashing comments....mostly.

pukenpete · #7 09-30-2004, 02:57 PM

Pay the marker. What kind of lowlife, bottom-feeding scumbag would make up a fake marker? I mean, lawyer jokes aside, this dude is supposed to be your friend, right? Pay it in public if you insist. But I would suggest that you: 1. Bring enough cash every time, 2. Sign your markers or otherwise remember who's holding them, pay that guy back asap and make sure you physically tear up the marker in the process. Markers are just a bad idea and remembering about money owed to friends/coworkers is just really messy.

submariner · #8 09-30-2004, 03:06 PM

I agree, that's what I meant about setting up a new system for future markers. What I meant, though, is him (or others) coming up with more "old markers". That's why I thought having one official 'claim it or lose it' session, after which new markers would be done as you said.

Knockwurst · #9 09-30-2004, 04:57 PM

Seems like most if not all of you are saying to pay off the marker. Some of you said to ask the other people at the table if they recalled it, but markers go out so fast and frequently, no one could possibly remember a marker that wasn't their's from seven or eight months ago. After all neither he nor I really remember it.

I'm surprised about two things. First, none of you seemed to consider it significant that he didn't mention it for 7 months even though we communicated once or twice a month.

I'm also suprised none of you considered it significant that he has been accused of cheating in the game. I was probably being generous in portraying it as a mere accusation, almost all of the regulars were sure that he was cheating, and I was about 75% sure he was.

But in any case, I'm sure I will be paying him something if not the whole thing. I will definitely be signing any markers in the future, and try to keep better gambling records in general.

Thanks for the assistance.

chesspain · #10 10-01-2004, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also suprised none of you considered it significant that he has been accused of cheating in the game. I was probably being generous in portraying it as a mere accusation, almost all of the regulars were sure that he was cheating, and I was about 75% sure he was....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised that you think that the cheating allegation is relevant, since this means you believe that it is O.K. to possibly ignore a legitimate debt simply because he had been accused of cheating in the past. This would seem to be a curious position to take for someone who is attempting to use the concept of laches to avoid this debt, since one could argue that your willingness to remain in the game with this person long after the cheating allegations were made would mean that you did not believe these allegations (or that you are too stupid to stay away from a crooked game).