2 Semi-Bluff Turn Raises

[Knockwurst]

Trying to open up my game a bit. Were these semi-bluff turn raises the right play?

Both hands took place on consecutive days at local 10/20 B&M.

Hand #1

EP limps, MP1 limps, tricky LAG MP2 limps, CO limps, Hero in SB limps with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], BB checks. 6 players -- 6 small bets.

Flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero bets out, BB folds, EP raises, MP1 calls, tricky LAG MP2 reraises, CO folds, Hero calls?!? (should Hero cap here?), EP and MP1 call. 4 players -- 18 small bets.

Turn is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero checks, EP and MP1 check, tricky LAG MP2 bets, Hero raises?!? (It felt like the right play at the time, but I'm willing to consider other POVs). EP and MP1 fold, MP2 calls. 2 players -- 13 big bets.

River is J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check and MP2 checks. I didn't like betting out with my pair of nines on the river when the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] fell. What if it was J clubs or spades, does anyone bet out? What if it was a club or spade below a nine? Any views on the turn checkraise?

Hand #2

TAG EP limps, LAG MP1 limps, MP2 limps, Button limps, SB folds, Hero in BB checks with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Five players -- 5.5 small bets.

Flop is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero bets?!? (Maybe a checkraise would be better here for deception and so a TAG EP raise doesn't shut other players out?), TAG EP calls, LAG MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Button calls. Four players -- 9.5 small bets

Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets, TAG EP raises, LAG MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero reraises?!? (I don't know if this play was right, but I was thinking that if I hit the straight or, better yet, the flush, it would provide some deception to my hand), every one calls. Four players -- 17 big bets.

River is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero bets out?!?, EP folds, MP1 folds, Button folds!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] So was the three bet on the turn a good play or a bad play. Should I have checked the river looking to check raise.

Any comments appreciated.

[elindauer]

Oh man. The fact that you post these as semi-bluffs casts serious doubt on your poker logic.

First of all, a definition: semi-bluff, a bet or raise with a hand that isn't like to be best (hand 1), but which has some chance of improving to the best hand.

And some poker logic: a semi-bluff makes sense when you have some chance of winning the pot right there (hand 2).

Hand 1:

Your play is fine, but not a semi-bluff. Look, you may well have the best hand, but it is exteremely vulnerable and the pot is big. You raise to knock out overcards, knowing that if you are behind (probably to the bettor who will not fold a better hand to your reraise on this 2 flush board) you still have plenty of outs. There's very little chance that your raise wins the pot right there, so classifying it as a "semi-bluff" is wrong. It's a protect the best hand raise.

Hand 2:

You have no chance to win immediately, so once again raising as a "semi-bluff" makes little sense. You could argue that your raise is for value with so many callers, but I'd say just calling is best. Your reraise certainly deceives them when the flush arrives... they put you on top set, which they also can't beat!


Start over.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[Steve Giufre]

Eric pretty much said it all in his post. Hand 1 is not a semibluff. You should raise because you probably have the best hand. In hand two there is no point in three betting the turn, there is no way you will win without improving. Just call.

[bobbyi]

I would have capped the flop on the first hand. With top pair/good kicker and a big flush draw, this is a monstrous flop for you. If capping drives some people out, that's fine, as the pot is large and you don't mind increasing your chance of winning by losing players. If they all call, that's fine as you are going to win more than your fair share againts this number of opponents. You have a big hand on this flop and I would play it as such.

[Manzanita]

Knockwurst,

With respect to your second hand:

[ QUOTE ]
Hero bets, TAG EP raises, LAG MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero reraises?!? (I don't know if this play was right, but I was thinking that if I hit the straight or, better yet, the flush, it would provide some deception to my hand)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually your 3-bet on the turn is for value here. With three opponents in the hand, you only need 12 outs to jam the pot. Your nut flush draw gives you 9 outs and you probably have 6 more with your open-ended straight draw; hence, it would have been an error not to re-raise here.

-- Manzanita

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
it would have been an error not to re-raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless by making a raise that's slight +EV now he gives up more profitable situations later, like getting paid off when he hits the nut flush.

I'd 3 bet too, but it isn't necessarily an error given how tight his opponents seem.

[elysium]

hi knock

hand 1) the problem with the check-raise is that you have top pair with decent kicker; 2 pair. before making a semi-bluff check-raise, there must be some reasonable chance of gettinmg the fold. you very well might have that here. but the problem is that you also need to ask ' what hand that i can't beat, wioll my opponent laydown?'. and well, you have top pair; there is no hand that you are behind that your opponent will fold. he won't fold the same hand either. your hand can also improve.

hand 1 is a terrible time to checvk-raise semi.

hand 2) too aggressive on the turn. the river betout is perfect.

[Knockwurst]

You guys are right, these aren't semi-bluffs because there's no chance the raises will get everyone to fold.

But elysium, I'm surprised you didn't like the check-raise on hand #1 in order to try and get it heads-up against the player who three bet the flop. I would have thought I want to try to protect my pair of nines against overcards especially with the board pairing on the turn, and having a king high flush draw.

Another reason for the turn check-raise was in consideration of the "phantom cars." I wanted to project a looser image for future hands b/c I wasn't playing a lot of hands.

[elysium]

hi knock

it seems as though the turn check-raise is good. it is not. before check-raising semi-bluffing, you must have a very clear idea of what you are trying to accomplish. a check-raise semi is always a drive-out raise. so driving out must be the main reason for making the raise. of course, before driving out your opponents, you need to be very sure that that is what you want to do. while you don't necessarily need to have a stronger hand fold to make the raise correct, the fewer credible opponents remaining in the hand, the less likely you want a weaker hand to fold. if you were facing just 2 opponents rather than 3, the raise loses a little integrity. you now don't mind A7 of suit taking a swing at you, and if AQ wants to mix it up, that's fine too. you bet. 'i'm betting!', bang, down onto the table a handful of chips. ' and i'm not driving you out.', your chips say. they call that bet; they call.

in this hand, you have 3 opponents. driving out gains credibility. however, you must now, among all the other considerations, understand that every opponent with a made hand will be betting that draw infested board. if you are therefore given an opportunity to make a drive-out check-raise semi-bluff, and that's what they all are, drive-out raises; but if you can drive-out or driveout, little websters doesn't cover this particular word; anyway, if you can, you can't. the reason you can't is because if you could, the action would have had to necessarily been check, check, check, bet, and then back to you, indicating that the MP's are on some type of draw, and one or the other might have a 7 with an outstanding kicker. as you say, overs are also possible. and if you peer deeper still into this tangled mess, you would see yourself picking up a single bet and the pot those times everyone folds, or getting reraised and possibly drawing dead just as often as those times you win the pot. so you lose 2 more bets when reraised by the boat, and lose 2 or more bets those times you are leading, when you win the pot. these figures are not etched in stone and can be jostled into a more palatable configuration. a driveout raise has its good points. when you must violate the general tenet of reserving the check-raise semi-bluff for clear-cut situations that either give your hand the best chance of standing up or folding out a stronger hand that your opponent might reasonably be expected to laydown, you avoid the the tangled web of -ev that isn't at once apparent. in this spot, check-calling is very reasonable. you need to be careful even here though. a check-call can often result in allowing a miracle to slide off that might cost you the whole pot. on this draw infested board, you can expect the river to kill you. and now you enter into the known universe again. and you must betout. 'if he's going to put six in you on the river, you want to put one in him on the turn.'. marlon brando; one-eyed jacks; little dvd.

[SpicyF]

elysium I like you and dont take this the wrong way, but I think you have to much free time on your hands when you have the time to make long replies like that. Always a good read nonetheless.

Hugs