Another Small Pocket Pair Post -- Fundamentals (boring)

[Knockwurst]

I too have problems with playing small and medium pocket pairs. So I have some general questions.

Say you have four people limping, do you like raising or calling with TT-77 on the button or CO? What if four players have cold called a raise and you're on the button or CO? Anyone three bet?

Let me give a hypothetical hand:

Hypothetical Hand #1

Four players limp -- you're on the button with 9h9s. What do you do? Let's say you raise and limpers and BB calls.

Now Ks 8s 2h flops

Check, check, bet, fold, CO raises, it's on you -- fold?

What if it's checked to you? What if there's a bet and a call?

Let's say it's checked to you, you bet and get two callers.

Turn is Td

Check, bet and its up to you. Fold or call?

River is an 4s (making a possible flush)

Checked to you.

Thanks in advance.

[steveyz]

After 4 limpers, raising is fine. With 2 or 3 limpers, I'd just call with 77-99. I might raise with TT if the blinds are tight. If it's raised and there is a bunch of cold callers, I don't 3-bet.

In your post flop scenerios, I fold.

[Garland]

There are two trains of thought.

1) Raising with medium pairs for preflop equity, and you'd like to get people in the blinds to fold. The drawback to this is you make the pot bigger and people are more inclined to call flop bets and raises to chase. Obviously with 4+ others in the pot, 10-10 and below doesn't stand nearly as good a chance to hold up if you don't flop a set.

2) Calling for deception and to flop a set. Now if you see a nice rag flop and you feel you have the best hand, you can bet and raise and get more people to fold if you want to protect your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Say you have four people limping, do you like raising or calling with TT-77 on the button or CO?


[/ QUOTE ]
Usually with 10-10, I'll raise, lower pairs, I'll just call.

[ QUOTE ]
What if four players have cold called a raise and you're on the button or CO? Anyone three bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cold call any pocket pair 10's and below. JJ and higher, I would 3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetical Hand #1

Four players limp -- you're on the button with 9h9s. What do you do? Let's say you raise and limpers and BB calls.

Now Ks 8s 2h flops

Check, check, bet, fold, CO raises, it's on you -- fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

The board is ragged with no straight draw on board. There is a flush draw, but it's almost certain that at least one of the players has a K and you don't have the odds to chase a set. I would fold. This is especially true if your 99 doesn't include a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[ QUOTE ]

What if it's checked to you?


[/ QUOTE ]

Bet. You are most likely to have the best hand, but you shouldn't give anyone free cards. It's not likely everyone folds, but for everyone who does, your odds of winning goes up.

[ QUOTE ]

What if there's a bet and a call?


[/ QUOTE ]
This is dependent on the opponent who bet, but I would either raise or fold at this point. Sometimes a bet will be made with middle pair or a flush draw and will test the field. You should drive out as many people as you can while getting information from the original better or caller who may reraise you. That should give you better knowledge of where you stand.
[ QUOTE ]

Let's say it's checked to you, you bet and get two callers.
Turn is Td

Check, bet and its up to you. Fold or call?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's looking bleak now. Again it's opponent dependent, but I would probably fold in this situation the odds he's bluffing decrease because there are 2 more people in the pot. It's not like a new flush draw appeared.

[ QUOTE ]
River is an 4s (making a possible flush)

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you just called the turn, I would check this river behind. I really don't think there's much point value betting this board.

Garland

[Knockwurst]

Thanks for your very thorough response Garland.

Two questions -- First, don't you think a raise on the button provides more deception when you have medium or small pocket pairs? Doesn't a raise on the button make it seem like a big pocket pair or AKs, so that if a ragged flop with or without a high card comes up and its checked to you, you may be able to pick up the pot with a bet?

Second, why do we want the blinds to fold? Because if we hit our set on the flop, don't we want more players in to possibly call it down?

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
First, don't you think a raise on the button provides more deception when you have medium or small pocket pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is, but at what price? People will be hard pressed to let go of top pair, especially for the pot that you just caused to make really big. Sets are already deceptive in nature, I don't think you need to raise on the button in this case. If you want to raise there for deception, I'd do it with a medium suited connector or something else creative, not a small pocket.

[ QUOTE ]
so that if a ragged flop with or without a high card comes up and its checked to you, you may be able to pick up the pot with a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

With 4+ limpers who paid 2 bets, you're not picking up the pot with a single bet on the flop. Trust me.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, why do we want the blinds to fold? Because if we hit our set on the flop, don't we want more players in to possibly call it down?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew you were going to flop a set, of course you'd want everyone involved. The cold hard reality of the matter is, you're only going to flop a set 1 out of 8 times. You'll see a set only 1 out of 6 times with all 5 cards out. Sets are really tough to get. You don't want random hands like the blinds to beat you because they become difficult to play when they get involved. They're the ones who are more likely to hit 2 pair on some ragged flop than anyone else. If you have a medium or high pair, you should try to drive out the blinds or make them pay to play.

Garland

[steveyz]

Actually, I'll change my answer. After 4 limpers, I probably won't raise the medium pocket pairs (77-99, TT is borderline), as if the flop is rags, I'd like to keep the pot small, have someone bet into me so that I can raise and protect my vulnerable hand. Conversely, with the smaller pocket pairs, you can consider raising pf after a lot of limpers because there's basically 0 chance you can win without improving, so you don't have to worry about keeping the pot small or wanting someone to bet into you. Also, you can take a free card if they check to you, and if you do flop the set you can get a lot of customers as the pot is fairly big now.