AQ v. MP Limper -- No Piece Of The Board And Limper Bets River

[Knockwurst]

Local B&M $10-20. TPA (who deals (cards) at the club) limps from middle position, folded to me in CO, I raise with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], SB folds, BB calls, limper calls. 3 players -- $65.

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, BB folds, limper calls. 2 players -- $85.

Turn is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, limper calls.

River is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Limper bets out(?!?). I fold(?1?). I know she's a dealer, but based on the fact that in two hours she seemed to play straightforward and never get tricky in any situations, I folded. Was it a chump play? Do you almost always call down a river bet with A high and a non-threatening board -- even against a TPA?

[Steve Giufre]

Well you raised before the flop, bet the flop, and bet the turn. You would think she expects you to call her river bet. If she isnt real tricky, I'd probably fold. I would also check the turn most of the time.

[Knockwurst]

Thanks for the reply, as this thread was dropping faster than a rock tied to a puppy's neck thrown from the Brooklyn Bridge (not that I'd ever do such a thing).

[PDosterM]

Actually, betting the turn (as you did) is better than checking. What you are looking for is a free showdown on the river as AQ can win in this situation.

If you check the turn and she bets the river, do you now call? That’s a perfect time for her to bluff, so a call is defensible. If you check the turn and call the river it costs the same as if you bet the turn and check the river, but if you bet the turn (intending to check the river), you give her the opportunity to fold on the turn. Also if you bet the turn and she bets the river, it’s now much easier to correctly fold. (As happened in your example)

So your play was correct; it just turned out you were unlucky to find her with a hand that almost certainly beats AQ.

[Steve Giufre]

I'm not sure you can say betting the turn everytime is correct just because it cost you the same amount if you plan on calling the river. I certainly would not bet at it if I was called by a solid, ABC player on the flop. I'm interested to hear some other opinions as to what a default play would be agaist an unknown.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure you can say betting the turn everytime is correct just because it cost you the same amount if you plan on calling the river. I certainly would not bet at it if I was called by a solid, ABC player on the flop. I'm interested to hear some other opinions as to what a default play would be agaist an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think not betting the turn would be a mistake. There's a flush draw out there, you don't really want to be giving free cards, even if it's heads up. After that, check the river. Since the opponent bet out on the river, and he's normally passive, it sure sounds like a river fold is the right thing. If he weren't passive, I would call.

[PDosterM]

This is poker; there is no such thing as "everytime." [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

It might be correct to check the turn if your knowledge of your opponent convinces you she never bluffs and you know you can get a free showdown when you are ahead without betting the turn. But I still don't like giving a free card if I might currently be ahead.

[Steve Giufre]

I didnt see the flush draw there in his post. It certainly makes the aurgument for betting stronger. Without it, agaist a tightish player like the one described, I would probably check behind.

[Knockwurst]

Steve, my read on her was that while she was passive while being bet into, if I checked the river there was a good chance >40%, she would bet on the river with K high, small pocket pair or 3rd-5th pair on the board. I thought that if I bet it on the turn there was at least a decent chance she would fold the turn if she didn't have anything, and at least check the river if she missed. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure you can say betting the turn everytime is correct just because it cost you the same amount if you plan on calling the river. I certainly would not bet at it if I was called by a solid, ABC player on the flop. I'm interested to hear some other opinions as to what a default play would be agaist an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends on how likely she is to check-raise, and in particular, how likely she is to check-raise with a worse hand. It's an easy bet against a calling station or a solid but straightforward player and an easy check against a trickier, more aggressive player.

If the player is somewhere in between, I think the default play should be to bet, since there are some meta-game disadvantages to giving away too many free turn cards (e.g. a player can correctly take a card off on the flop with a much weaker range of holdings).