QJo foolishness (first timer, be nice)

jtr · #1 08-21-2004, 09:28 AM

Hi, all.

I've been enjoying the forum for a while now and getting a lot out of the excellent hand analyses that many of you post here. Starting to feel guilty for lurking and never offering up any of my own dubious plays (of which there are plenty).

So, to get the ball rolling: here's a QJo hand for you to criticize. I know that mistake number one was probably playing this crappy hand PF at all -- the table had been fairly passive and I thought I was going to see several callers behind, although that's not what happened. When the action came on the flop, I wasn't happy but figured CO could well be pumping his flush draw. No clubs on turn and river meant I had to call down. Was my thinking anywhere near sensible?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.66 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.66 BB

Rudbaeck · #2 08-21-2004, 10:03 AM

Bet the turn. Atleast one of them is on a flush draw, and if it's CO there won't be any bets going into the pot on the turn.

If CO has something he'll probably raise, and UTG+1 will pay for his flush draw.

If CO raises just check/call the river unimproved.

I think... Lets see where the giants of the SS forum takes this.

jt1 · #3 08-21-2004, 10:09 AM

Looks fine to me. QJo is playable with any number of players in MP. I would think that in games where you can bank on at least one raise preflop then you can muck it. I wouldn't bet the turn. CO has you beat unless he's a LAG, but I would call down.

bernie · #4 08-21-2004, 01:01 PM

Fold preflop. This hand sucks from this position. IF you're going to come in here, raise the damn thing to get some players out. This hand sucks multiway.

I don't think the CO is pumping a flush draw. Especially when he bets the turn. That indicates he's beating your top pair.

b

Rudbaeck · #5 08-21-2004, 01:11 PM

Well, CO acts after hero on the turn, so it's kinda hard to know that he will bet. (It seems likely though.)

And if CO has read SSH, or these forums, or is a LAG his bet still doesn't mean he beats top pair. Though calling down from his turn bet on out is probably right.

The question for hero on the turn is: Do I want to risk giving flush draws a free card?

Being out of position sucks.

bernie · #6 08-21-2004, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, CO acts after hero on the turn, so it's kinda hard to know that he will bet. (It seems likely though.)

And if CO has read SSH, or these forums, or is a LAG his bet still doesn't mean he beats top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most haven't read either. I don't ever assume they do until they prove it to me with prior plays.

I wouldn't be in this situation with this hand unless i knew much more how the players played at the table so i could gauge what they likely have rather than blindly calling down in the dark out of position. You have to have a good read/feel of your opponents to play QJo out of MP if you choose to play it there. Otherwise, they're just the same pretty connected facecards that every donator plays in this spot.

b

jtr · #7 08-23-2004, 10:28 PM

Thanks, everyone, for the comments. I can appreciate both sides of the argument, but I think I'm leaning towards not playing QJo in such a spot. Having played preflop, I am happy with the flop play but probably should have check-folded turn unimproved, I think.

Results not really important, but the bad guy turned out to have a set of 9s and MHING.

TheHip41 · #8 08-23-2004, 10:34 PM

Check folding the turn here with top pair can't be the right move, can it?

Derek

Mike Gallo · #9 08-23-2004, 10:44 PM

Look at your preflop play as a double edged sword. Yes you should have folded the hand, however look at how you gained postflop playing experience with marginal hands.

Flop play looks fine. I would have capped it.

Turn: I would have check raised. My line works well with your flop line, since just called him. If you capped the flop, I doubt he would bet into you.

River

I would call, unless I knew my opponent would not bet in this spot without less then two pair.