Th9h - i river goot, but how do i flawp?

milesdyson · #1 12-21-2005, 04:09 AM

Button is 20/4. straightforward tight passive player.

SB is 63/33/2. LAG, but can slow down postflop with hopeless hands. he will cap flopped oesds, four flushes, and top pairs. he will raise middle pairs but will slow down to a lot of aggression.

BB is 41/8/1 - the usual loose passive player.

Absolute it up 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB raises[/i], BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets...

Button folds, SB caps, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero caps, SB calls.

23 BB pot gits SHIPPPPPPPPED. table erupts. especially BB who folded 66.

imported_leader · #2 12-21-2005, 04:19 AM

I don't like flop 3-bet. Seems to me you're getting yourself in a pot that could get capped now and go bet-raise on the turn. In which case you just invest 2BB to win 9 with a gut shot that is going to hit 1-11 times. I don’t think you’re best case scenario i.e a free river happens very often with the LAG in. Also you're implied odds aren't great here because an 8 puts 4-str8 on the board. You're overs will probably get you into more trouble then they're worth.

Chairman Wood · #3 12-21-2005, 04:54 AM

There was a post the other day that a person had a somewhat similar hand but he did have an OESD. He thought he should have raised to free up/avoid redraws for some of his outs to pair like an 8 or 9 or something. I told him that he should just flat call with his draw. Although your draw is somewhat different I think the major difference why you should do some raising here is that the pot size is at least twice as big. You have 3 very solid outs to a gutshot , a bd flush draw and pair outs that I would devalue to about 2 out of 6. I give you at least 6 effective outs. Needing 6.7:1 and you are getting roughly 6.5:1. I think it is fine to continue with this hand. Even though you are a little short on the odds and not closing the action I think you can make this up against all these players when the bet size doubles the next two rounds. Further the best way to continue with this hand is invest the extra bet to see if you can get some hands to fold/buy a free card. If it fails (like it did) you gain some information (your pair outs aren't so good)so its not a big deal. As evidenced from the final pot size you definately made up through the implied odds when you hit compared to any poor odds that you had on the flop. I dig it all.

#4 12-21-2005, 09:29 AM

In my opinion, I think you were lucky that a 5 hit on the turn. If the turn wasn't a 5 it probably would have got capped again and you would have had terrible odds on your flop raise.

I like the play because you may get a free card/good implied odds. But I am not so sure if it is +EV with a weak draw. Especially when you MAY get capped with only 4 outs (maximum) for the straight. I don't think you are getting a free card hardly ever.

True

milesdyson · #5 12-21-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, I think you were lucky that a 5 hit on the turn. If the turn wasn't a 5 it probably would have got capped again and you would have had terrible odds on your flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
like i said the lag in this hand is not going to continue to go crazy after i 3-bet the flop unless he has an overpair, four flush, or oesd. honestly the guy would most likely find a fold with two random overcards here.

BB is very typical and could easily be scared with top pair, or perhaps he's raising a draw himself.

i want button out because

1. i want the button.
2. he could have JT, AT, KT, A9, K9s, etc. admittedly he would probably find a fold with those hands for two cold here, but maybe i can get him to fold a backdoor flush draw for that extra bet.

should i coldcall the flop? fold the flop?

#6 12-21-2005, 01:49 PM

Im not one to say coldcall this flop because I think it gets 3bet and sometimes capped behind us. I'd rather have that initiative and 3bet it ourselves while it's cheaper, on the flop. sure we take the risk of getting it capped but we also have the chance of putting in the last raise and getting a free card. I think that alone is worth it when you consider that it might be 3bet/capped anyway.