I just give up on AT

[imported_leader]

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Last night I was looking at a pro friend of mine's PT stats. He plays mostly 25/50, plays 75/150 whenever anybody sits down, and totally crushes 15/30 short-handed games.

So, I decided to check out his position stats. He's folding ATo 80% of the time UTG in 6-handed games. He's also folding KQo 100% of the time.

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I'd check again. That's pretty clearly not optimal.

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What can I tell you? The guy played 30K hands last month and made $16,810.95. If you think you know better what's optimal in 75/150, you should get in a game with him.

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Stack me and I will. Otherwise it will be a couple of years at least.

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He does raise 66 and 55 UTG 6-handed, which I suppose is just a factor of how tight the games are.

To be fair, he only played 1,900 hands of 6-handed, as compared to 6,500 3-handed and 12,000 heads-up, so maybe he's terrible at 6-max and makes up for it in other places.

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1900 hands is like a day and a half. BTW, I think the mistake is more likely on your end then his. Did you ask him if he folds AT/KQ UTG? It's hard for me to believe that someone that is crushing those stacks could be making such a fundamental mistake.

[imported_leader]

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So, I decided to check out his position stats. He's folding ATo 80% of the time UTG in 6-handed games. He's also folding KQo 100% of the time.

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When you guys figure out that this stuff barely matters and has virtually nothing to do with being a good player or winning you will be much better off.

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Don't you think folding At and especially KQ UTG is indicative of being a weak-thightie. I mean I'd raise KQo most of the time UTG 10-handed.

[BadBatsuMaru]

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1900 hands is like a day and a half. BTW, I think the mistake is more likely on your end then his. Did you ask him if he folds AT/KQ UTG? It's hard for me to believe that someone that is crushing those stacks could be making such a fundamental mistake.

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Well, that's tactless and clueless.

I'm not going to run down all his stats for you, but he seems to re-raise on the button with a few more hands than he opens with 3-off the button (UTG in 6-max). Now you can mention how stupid that must make him to 3-bet in position with hands he didn't want to open out of position. Apparently position is pretty important to him. Maybe he should learn to play better out of position, but he's doing pretty well (seeing as he's 22 and has paid off half of his new $330K house in 6 months). I don't think he's exactly weak-tight. You really can't say that when he opens 5's UTG, and he's opening 50% of his hands from the button.

And you're volunteering that you raise KQo UTG in full ring games? That goes against what Ed Miller, Dan Harrington, and David Sklansky suggest, but I guess you're the smart one. I think they all suggest that KQo UTG is mostly a hand that you limp with in passive games. Maybe you should read HEPFAP where Sklansky specifically mentions how difficult Group 4 hands (that includes KQ) are to play out of position in an aggressive game.

So take your KQo, and raise it UTG in an aggressive $25/$50 or higher 6-max game. Raise KQo, which doesn't make the top 10% of hands on any list, and see what happens with 3 decent players left to act. You'll have -- and I'm totally guessing here -- about a 35% chance of getting 3-bet? Then you're heads-up out of position against a guy who can put you on an pretty narrow range of hands. You don't know what he's holding, because he'd 3-bet all kinds of hands in the CO or button just to clear the blinds out. How do you play that? Check/call and lose to A-high 60% of the time? Do you give up when you miss and lose to any two cards 67% of the time?

I think most would agree that, at least theoriteically, there could exist a 6-max game aggressive enough that you could only play your top 8% or 9% of hands UTG, which would leave ATo and KQo out of the picture. Anybody with a better hand would absolutely love you to raise to they can 3-bet you so they get heads-up with position + initiative + dead money from the blinds.

Honestly, you really don't need to be acting so superior. You're the one that (obviously jokingly) said you're giving up on AT, and I was simply offering up that it might not be as silly as you think. It may be wrong, but as Stellar suggests, it really doesn't matter too much.

[TomBrooks]

Bet the flop.

You might fold the field.

You might at least get the button and the chance to take a free card on the turn if you want it.

[Monty Cantsin]

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Stack me and I will.

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I'd be happy to stack you, although in limit it might take me a couple of orbits. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Meanwhile, I agree with you in this argument, fwiw. The guy folding QKo UTG 100% of the time is making a mistake.

/mc