PLO8 starting hands and VPIP

[jthegreat]

Okay so I'm still pretty new at PLO8, but there are a few thoughts I'd like confirmed by those of you who know what you're doing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] PL as opposed to limit has a fairly significant effect on the hands that you can play. Low hands with no suited A's aren't worth much at all since the high hands make the money at this game, right? So even A234 rainbow is nowhere near as good a hand as it is in limit, since your only chance at high is a small straight or a possible lucky full house. Second, high pocket pairs are worth more because sets make a lot of money in PL. But do you just play any high pair/2 danglers in late position with a lot of callers? Do the implied odds make that the correct play?

I seem to go hours sometimes and play less than 10 hands. Just how much do you lower the bar as far as starting hand requirements? Obviously the implied odds in PL mean you can loosen up some, but knowing how much is still tough for me.

Any thoughts or advice you guys can give me is appreciated. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[emptyshell]

VPIP should be around 30%. If you aren't raising with A234, you aren't playing well. Low hands even without suited aces are good, high hands are good, only the stuff in between is no good.

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So even A234 rainbow is nowhere near as good a hand as it is in limit, since your only chance at high is a small straight or a possible lucky full house.

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You are missing one key point: You don't have to make the best high to win the whole pot, you can win the whole pot by locking up half the pot and forcing your opponent to commit a lot of chips just to split with you but they fold (or call and then have their high-only get counterfeited). Hands like A234 should be huge PLO8 hands. I have just started PLO8 working my way up from the bottom (Stars PL$0.01/0.02), and PTO so far shows A23x is a bigger winner than AA2x for me.

Right now I'm only at 17.2%, but the microlimits are full of such bad players that they'll pay off everything and won't notice you are tight (68 PTBB/100 so far!).

[TGoldman]

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PL as opposed to limit has a fairly significant effect on the hands that you can play.

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If you're coming from a successful limit O8 background, then you hopefully are already able to identify good LO8 starting hands. All of these can be played in PLO8, along with a few more speculative holdings due to the implied odds from the pot-limit betting structure.

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Low hands with no suited A's aren't worth much at all since the high hands make the money at this game, right?

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Yikes, I'm not sure where you heard that from. Low cards suited to the ace are excellent PLO8 starting hands. Except for rare exceptions, the huge pots in PLO8 usually occur when there's a low or low draw on the board. You'll drag your biggest pots when you 3/4 quarter another low, getting him to commit his stack when you have the low locked up and have decent high hand (or draw). High flops tend to kill the action. It's rare to find someone who is willing to commit their stack on a board of QJT2 raindow unless both players have at least an AK.

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So even A234 rainbow is nowhere near as good a hand as it is in limit, since your only chance at high is a small straight or a possible lucky full house.

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This is a good hand in either betting structure IMO. Of course, we wish it was suited, but it's still strong if it's rainbow. In limit, the strength of the hand is making a non-conterfeitable low. In PL, the strength from this hand will be in making a holding such as two-pair + nut-low or a wheel wrap.

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I seem to go hours sometimes and play less than 10 hands. Just how much do you lower the bar as far as starting hand requirements? Obviously the implied odds in PL mean you can loosen up some, but knowing how much is still tough for me.

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Wheither it's limit Hold'em, limit O8, or PLO8 I'm usually the tightest player at the table. My My VP$IP for PLO8 is about 20%. That's loose for me, probably tight by most other's standards

[jthegreat]

What about starting hands where you have 3 of one suit, but have the A?

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Yikes, I'm not sure where you heard that from. Low cards suited to the ace are excellent PLO8 starting hands.

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that's not what I said. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I said NO suited A's.

[fat_nutz]

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Okay so I'm still pretty new at PLO8, but there are a few thoughts I'd like confirmed by those of you who know what you're doing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] PL as opposed to limit has a fairly significant effect on the hands that you can play. Low hands with no suited A's aren't worth much at all since the high hands make the money at this game, right?

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Nope. With a made low, you have an opportunity to quarter other lows, or put pressure on weak/medium-strength high hands to fold. You can often pick up an entire pot by being aggressive with a naked low (although it can be dangerous b/c you may get 1/4ed if you're not careful).

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So even A234 rainbow is nowhere near as good a hand as it is in limit, since your only chance at high is a small straight or a possible lucky full house.

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Wrong.

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Second, high pocket pairs are worth more because sets make a lot of money in PL. But do you just play any high pair/2 danglers in late position with a lot of callers? Do the implied odds make that the correct play?

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Um, you're pretty much way off base... you'll see with experience that sets aren't any stronger in PL than in limit. I'd suggest just going back and reading posts here on PLO8. Search in particular for reading on PLO8, it's all internet based, you'll find an occasional post about it using the search in this forum.

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I seem to go hours sometimes and play less than 10 hands. Just how much do you lower the bar as far as starting hand requirements? Obviously the implied odds in PL mean you can loosen up some, but knowing how much is still tough for me.

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I'm sure it's been said in other replies: you're playing too tight. Try to see around 25% of flops to start, then work your way up from there to 30-35% or so.

[kyleb]

As you can see, you can play PLO 8/b in many ways. My stats are 26/7/2.8 (VPIP/PFR/TOTAGRO) and I'm a decently winning player (16BB/100) at the $100 PLO 8/b games.

The best strategy is the one you are most comfortable with - whether it's playing tight and semi-nut peddling, playing a trapping style of PLO, or being aggressive and attacking often with semi-bluffs. Only thousands of hands can tell you that information. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Good luck at the tables!

[gergery]

Several of the biggest winners in my database have VPIPs around 16-19 with low PFR ~1

Couple other biggest winners have VPIPs around 40-42 with PFR ~10

There are different styles that work

[Mendacious]

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VPIP should be around 30%.

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How did you arrive at this?

Putting aside the fact that obviously VPIP should vary depending on table conditions-- how do you decide what is optimal for a player.

When I started tracking I was between 31 & 33. As I have tracked my play and tweeked, I am now around 25 for full PL08 games. I have found this to be optimal for me-- as a balance between limiting variance and maximizing opportunities. Too much variance makes me make worse decisions and causes me to lose profits.

I have broken down my database into catagories of VPIP <25, between 26 and 44, and above. I have found that players can be profitable, no matter how many hands they have at virtually any VPIP, with greatest profitability and variance at the over 40 VPIP end of the scale.

But taken as a whole, I think greatest sustainable profitability is between 22-28% with aggression of at least 1.75.