$20 $40 JJ in small blind

[DeeJ]

what everyone said about 3-betting preflop.

On the turn, it looks like you're with 3 players and about 17BB in the pot. UTG looks like he's gonna call pretty much anything, probably still on a draw. Fish do win pots, and he might be bluffing. You have implied odds to draw to trip Jacks (assuming you're not dead to a straight) and you might still be ahead which I'd say about cancels the drawing dead odds. Not knowing the players at all, but against a fish I'd be loathe to fold for 1 bet.

Especially if a 6 comes on the river, counterfeits fish's 85/82/52 twopair... I can see lots of horror stories when you muck this.

[Robb]

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If you three bet that PF it makes the hand so much easier to play. Cause no way youre folding an overpair on the turn in a huge bloated pot.

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I like 3 betting preflop too but this statement sounds like you think it's correct to make the pot huge so you have odds to draw. As in, "Well JJ is probably no good here but the pot is huge so I'll call." Which is fine in and of itself but not if you made the pot huge when you thought you were behind.

It sounds like you make the right call of raising preflop but for the wrong reasons, imho. The preflop raise is for value.

[bunky9590]

youre right the preflop 3 bet is for sheer value, no question, its just at that point there would be over 20BB in on the turn at least (if hero three bet PF), and I dont make it a habit of folding overpairs in enourmous pots for one single raise.

[drbk2]

[ QUOTE ]
surely you expected this turn to get raised when you bet it didn't you?

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Suspected but not expected.

[drbk2]

Thanks for everyone's comments.

preflop: I agree not 3 betting here is terrible. There's too much value out there for me not to do so. My biggest weakness preflop has always been situations like this, and I'm still working on fixing these problems. I had always taken the approach with a hand like JJ or TT or even QQ from the blinds in a multiway raised pot like this to flat call and see if I liked the flop before committing any more chips, but I realize now how wrong that thinking is. However, I still fall back into old bad habits.

Turn: My definition of a "fish" is one whose purpose is to make hands rather than win pots. The fish that I usually play with at the Borgata will do all kinds of crap on the flop but will hardly ever (if ever) make any type of raise on the turn without a very strong hand. That's why I chose to ignore his play on the flop and see what he did on the turn when faced with more pressure. His quick raise on the turn told me I had exactly two outs.

I understand that limit hold em is not about making huge laydowns but rather about making long term profitable call downs even though these calls are losers most of the time. But in this situation, by his body language, by my knowledge of the player, I was 100% sure I was beat. I think it would have been a mistake on my part to ignore all this and go completely by pot value and call down here.

Anyway, UTG + 1raised the turn, I mucked, and UTG called. The river was some blank. Check bet call. UTG + 1 shows 88.

[bank]

3 bet this preflop ...smooth calling from the sb is a mistake with so many flat callers on the initial raise.

I call down this turn & river against an unknown turn raise...pots just too big.

Basically everyone said you should 3 bet your Jacks in this situation and i agree with that. With all these people committed to the pot, its a great raise for value. However if the action were a bunch of limpers and then someone from late postion raised I would just call with QQ or JJ to set up a flop checkraise if the flop was friendly. Of course i would still 3 bet preflop in this hypothetical situation if i thought the limpers in the middle would fold, but they seldom will. My only point is I think there are still situations where it would be better to just call the raise with JJ or even QQ out of the blinds, but most of the time I am 3 betting.