Was I wrong to fold? I think so!

[PFrese]

I just made a fold online that I think was a bad fold. As a matter of fact, I am sure it was, but for sanity's sake, I wanted to double check.

PP 2/4 Game is passive and tight. I am in the SB with 89o (suits unimportant for the hand)

TWO EPs and BB and me see the flop for one SB

Flop (673)

I check intending to check raise, BB checks, UTG1 Bets, next guy calls, I decide to call, and see what the turn brings (why, I have no idea. Question- does EVERYONE check raise here???)

Turn K (673)

I check, BB folds, UTG checks, UTG +1 Bets, I look at this, and think there is only 20 bucks in the pot, I am getting 1:4 to call and I have 8 outs. Plus I am a little worried about a check raise for the UTG guy. SOOO, I fold! [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] Instantly, I wish I could bring it back!

River of course brings the 5 (which is unimportant, I know! [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] )

Was the fold wrong? And if it was 4 to a flush, does that change anything? IOW, would you still call?

How do you guys like to play 4 to a flush or straight, given a passive game? Agressive game?

Thanks,
PaulF

[Allan]

I would bet out on this flop rather than checkraise. You have a good draw and 2 overcards. Your opponents are in Early position and this flop couldn't have hit them. There is a chance that you could win on the flop. Why did you want to checkraise? What was the purpose of this plan? On 4th street, you are throwing away money if your are routinely making folds like this. You should be going to the river with this hand. If you are checkraised, sure you don't like it, but you have hand that can easily call another bet.


Allan

[Ed Miller]

You are getting 5-1 to call. You have to call here.

[Dynasty]

You screwed up. Don't fold hands which are draws to the nuts, especially for 1 bet.

I have 8 outs

This may be the real problem with your thinking. If UTG+1 (turn bettor) has at least a King, then you are drawing to just 8 outs. However, he could be making a good bet on a hand like A7s. If A7 is the best hand out there, then you have 14 outs. You shouldn't too quickly dismiss the possibility that your pair outs are good when they are overcards to the flop.

As for the prior play of the hand, this is the perfect situation to semi-bluff bet on the flop.

[davidross]

A couple of points.

1) On this flop if the game is passive tight I would bet this flop and hope to win it right there. You have a very strong draw, as many as 14 outs, but it is still a draw and if I can win it right away that's great. Plus if you get called and make your straight on the turn, you are better disguised.

2) If the flop had been checked to the last player to act I might try the check-raise as a semi-bluff to make it heads up, then lead the turn.

3) Once two people are in on the flop your raise needs to be for value. Given the current situation (14 possible outs) a raise with 2 callers has a positive expectation, but you are out of position and need to be prepared to lead on the turn or reveal the nature of your hand.

I don't think there is anything wrong with any of these three aproaches. You need to choose the one that best fits your style and the opponents you are playing.

The fold on the turn is a very close call. Here is a trick I was taught for quickly determining if you have pot odds for a call in this situation. Multiply the BB's you expect to earn by the number of outs you have. If that number is higher than the number of unknown cards, then you have correct odds to call. In your case if you think you need to hit your straight to win then you don't have the odds. You have 8 outs and only 5 BB's in th epot. That gives you 40 which is less than the 46 unseen cards. But if you think either the BB will also call, or that you can get another bet on the river from the other guy then you do have odds. Or if you think you might have more outs then you do have odds as well.

Not as bad a fold as you might think, but I sure wouldn't have criticised a call here.

[Stu Pidasso]

Check raising this flop looks like you have top pair and you are trying to thin the field out. If the flop missed everyone, your likely to get the hand heads up with the button/original better. When that King comes on the turn. If the button isn't holding a King, its a scare card to him. Betting the turn might get him to fold it right there. Either way you still have outs.

Stu

I would never have mucked an open ender for one more bet. For me personally, the only time I would check-raise without a made hand is if I thought that I could win the pot right there. Semi-bluff with this one.

[Ed Miller]

Your multiply outs by pot size trick doesn't quite work. 8 outs with 46 unseen cards is 4.75-1 to make while the pot is laying 5-1. I believe it works if you add one bet to the pot size.