txaq007's Inescapable Error

David Sklansky · #1 09-06-2005, 09:18 PM

He's pretty good at wiggling out of things but not this time. It starts out when he admits he can't give 100% proof for the resurrection of Jesus and Chezlaw congratulates him on realizing that it may not be true. His reply:

"First of all, I believe 100% that Christ is the Son of God. I've come to this conclusion given the available evidence. What I said in my earlier post was that I couldn't give you 100% proof, not that I didn't believe it 100%."

Chezlaw's reply:

So you are close minded. You've taken a position that denies all other possibilities without any proof that there aren't other possibilities.

txaq007's reply:

"In how many other things in life do you need 100% proof before taking a position? The only thing we have to evaluate is the evidence that is out there, and it points to Christianity."

But he is not just "taking a position". He is claiming 100% certainty. While at the same time admitting there is not 100% proof. While at the same time claiming that he is not close minded. These three things cannot all exist at the same time whether he is talking about Jesus or whether the moon is made of green cheese.

Wonder whether he will try to refute that last sentence (not a good idea). If not, which of the three statements above (100% certainty, 100% proof, not close minded) will he give up?

txag007 · #2 09-06-2005, 09:51 PM

It's just a matter of perspective, David. I believe with 100% certainty that Jesus is the Son of God because I know Him personally. If you knew Him, you'd believe with 100% certainty, too.

However, I'm perfectly aware that you nor anyone else on these boards will accept my testimony as proof. Therefore, I can give you logical reasoning, but I can't give you 100% proof. That doesn't mean my belief is false. It's only my ability to express it that's not perfect.

As far as being close-minded, I don't consider myself so because I am willing to listen to and attempt to refute any alternate theories that are brought forth. This is more than can be said about many on this forum who bring with them a pre-determined bias against Christianity.

Alex/Mugaaz · #3 09-06-2005, 10:55 PM

Slightly off-topic, but what proof do you have that you know him personally?

Unless I am misreading your posts, it looks as you have some sort of testimony that proves you know God personally. The only way that is possible is if you saw a miracle take place that no one else witnessed, that God personally did for your benefit and knowing, and left no evidence. Is that your position?

#4 09-06-2005, 11:00 PM

Christians tend to believe that God "speaks" to them on a regular basis. I'm not talking about hearing voices, just that God helps out in small (and sometimes huge) ways. The non-believer writes these events off to chance. Or, explains the relief/confidence/love in other ways.

If my mother has a flat tire and someone happens along to help her, she credits God with watching over her. That explanation is comforting to her. (Although I don't believe the same things, I don't mean to be condescending. I actually have some admiration for those who can give themselves over to Faith. I just hope I'm never one of those people... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

goofball · #5 09-06-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's just a matter of perspective, David. I believe with 100% certainty that Jesus is the Son of God because I know Him personally. If you knew Him, you'd believe with 100% certainty, too.

However, I'm perfectly aware that you nor anyone else on these boards will accept my testimony as proof. Therefore, I can give you logical reasoning, but I can't give you 100% proof. That doesn't mean my belief is false. It's only my ability to express it that's not perfect.

As far as being close-minded, I don't consider myself so because I am willing to listen to and attempt to refute any alternate theories that are brought forth. This is more than can be said about many on this forum who bring with them a pre-determined bias against Christianity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you presented with a theory you couldn't refute would you then abandom your position?

#6 09-06-2005, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, I'm perfectly aware that you nor anyone else on these boards will accept my testimony as proof. Therefore, I can give you logical reasoning, but I can't give you 100% proof. That doesn't mean my belief is false. It's only my ability to express it that's not perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]Your ability to express it may be hampered by an attempt to explain it logically. From my understanding, Faith is not intended to be logical. If Faith could be proven, it would no longer be Faith.

Zygote · #7 09-06-2005, 11:07 PM

Why do you think you have personal relationship with God and i don't? I've attempted to seek a relationship, but i've found nothing to reciprocate.

I'd really appreciate if you would open up about the specifics of your personal relationship with God. Explain why you know you have a personal relationship and what about that relationship has convinced you of God's validity.

txag007 · #8 09-07-2005, 12:51 AM

"I'd really appreciate if you would open up about the specifics of your personal relationship with God. Explain why you know you have a personal relationship and what about that relationship has convinced you of God's validity."

Sure, no problem. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

The way to become a Christian is to admit that you are a sinner, born into sin, and that you cannot save yourself. By believing that Jesus was God's son sent to die for your sins, you can pray and ask Him into your heart.

I did this because I felt something was missing in my life. That something was Jesus. I pray to Him, and He answers my prayers. He speaks to me through the Bible, through others in my life, through experiences. He's even helping me form the right words as I type this.

I don't want this to sound like the Christian life is perfect because it's not. Jesus is not some imaginary friend that makes every day wonderful. He's always there with me, but my faith wavers like everyone elses. The Bible doesn't promise a perfect life, but it promises life more abundant.

I know many will read this and think I'm wacko, but I'm praying that each of you will open your heart just a little bit and think about the possibility that God exists and that Jesus was who He claimed to be. Accepting Him may be the hardest decision of your life, but it will ultimately be the most important.

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

Zygote · #9 09-07-2005, 01:41 AM

I highly appreciate your honest response, but still have a few more questions.

[ QUOTE ]
I did this because I felt something was missing in my life. That something was Jesus. I pray to Him, and He answers my prayers. He speaks to me through the Bible, through others in my life, through experiences. He's even helping me form the right words as I type this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please provide some examples, if you have some that aren't too private, regarding the specfic prayers that you believe were answered by God's intervention?

I don't intend this in a rude way, but how do you know you that your brain doesn't use the illusion of God to fill that void you were seeking? This would explain why many people of different theistic religions and cultures all seem to experience a similar psychological satisfaction by discovering the God they were seeking.

If you assume i'm right and that this is an illusion, then, your view of the world will always be in that frame of reference. Once someone changes into this new frame of reference, things that can exist without God are suddenly now associated with God's intervention. I compare this to a poker player who knows that party is rigged and sees convincing evidence for this every time he plays on the site. This poor poker player's mistake is believing that an outside force is intervening with the indepedent outcomes. Through proper investigation, he could realize that what he saw and believed to be an intervention was actually an event that could occur independent of an outside force. So, my question to you is what things have convinced you that the Christian God must exist for that event to have occured?

For example, God is not a necessary explanation for the content of your post. How do you know this didn't occur independent of God?

snowden719 · #10 09-07-2005, 01:54 AM

here is why I think that txaq is still on solid ground, it is the fact that the second premise is that there is not 100% proof he can give to you. Think of the following example.

Imagine you are in a room that is painted blue with a blind person, you tell the blind person that you are 100% certain the room is blue, but due to the fact that he is blind you cannot offer him 100% proof. I think we would say that there is nothing about your claim that the room is blue and that you are 100% certain of that belief even though you cannot give any proof to your blind friend.

Similarly, txaq's argument is that the proof he has is epistemically inaccessable to you, as you cannot access his personal experience that counts as proof for him. In this way txaq can be open minded, be 100% certain, and unable to give 100% proof, the reason is that the possible proof he could give you is epistemically inaccesable to you.