($10+1 MTT) Tourney Theory, 3Hands, 1st MTT, and being a Donk - Part 1

DawnToDusk · #1 09-15-2005, 12:47 AM

($10+1 MTT) Tourney Theory, 7 Hands, 1st Timer, and being a Donk

I have recently invested in Harrington on Hold’em: Volumes I & II as I am seeking to get involved in NL STT and MTT. Ultimately my goal is to be able to play STT and a regular basis around the $10-$50 levels and show a modest profit (something to build my bankroll) as well as play in MTT and make it deep into the tourney. Already my STT play has increased greatly. I have also seen some improvement in my MTT as well, but now I am here seeking your advice. I have several questions as well as hands to provide. Keep in mind I am relatively new to NL STT and MTT, and have a strong back ground in LHE. After reading through both Harrington books, I also have a good understanding as well as some idea of how the advanced concepts work.

In Volume I, Harrington discusses that you ought to push your good hands (TP, trips, etc.) as much as possible, as the blinds increase fast and there just isn’t enough time to use a conservative strategy to try to yield a large stack. This hand came up early in the tournament and I have no real reads on anyone. The blinds are at 10/15 and I have seen like a total of 5 hands. Table actually seemed surprisingly tighter than what I expected in a $10+1 tourney.

A hand came up where UTG limped in and I raised in the SB with JJ. I got called by the UTG player and I bet out on the flop. He called and then I bet out on the turn and he raised me. Is this one of those times where I should be thinking “Not a lot of time in the tourney to play conservatively. Don’t get lots of premium hands. Blinds will be hurting in roughly 45 mins if I fold this hand. Time to push all in and hope for the best?”

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

MP2 (t900)
MP3 (t925)
CO (t1075)
Button (t975)
Hero (t1055)
BB (t1025)
UTG (t1135)
UTG+1 (t1085)
UTG+2 (t840)
MP1 (t985)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, 2 folds, MP2 calls t15, 3 folds, Hero raises to t77.5, 1 fold, UTG calls t65, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls t65.

Flop: (t267.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t135, UTG calls t135, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t537.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t200, UTG raises to 500, Hero ???.

It seems like he/she hasn’t really displayed any real strength. He/she called a raise preflop and then a bet on the turn. Should I push in and cross my fingers that they don’t have a king or a set? Knowing this would kind of help me earlier in the tourney. Where there is an opportunity to maybe move someone off of a hand and take down a good sized pot or double through someone.

Shortly after that hand, I got moved to another table. I got a chance to observe for an orbit before I picked up a real hand and had noticed that the currently chip leader was at my table. He/she had been calling large raises preflop (blinds were 15/30 at the time and he/she was limp/calling raises of like 150+) as well as other players at the table. Yet when he/she hit TP, or hands like that, they would instantly put you in. Doesn’t matter. I saw them turn an inside straight draw and go all in. Hit flushes on the flop and go all in, etc. And if a player bet in him/her, then it meant he/she didn’t have TP or anything alike. Is this the type of player I should be looking to get in a confrontation with? I mean if I can hit the flop with a decent hand TPTK or TP with a decent kicker, should I be looking to check to them and either call their AI or C/R them myself and go AI? Here is a hand that came up between me and this very aggressive/loose chip lead. He/she is two to my left.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter

SB (t1555)
Hero (t1980)
UTG (t955)
UTG+1 (t8502)
UTG+2 (t480)
MP1 (t1100)
MP2 (t1650)
MP3 (t1095)
CO (t1010)
Button (t3500)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, 4 folds, CO calls t30, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises to t150, UTG calls t120, UTG+1 calls t120, CO calls t120, SB folds.

Flop: (t630) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets t300, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t300, CO folds.

Turn: (t1230) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t1530, UTG+1 calls t1530.

What would be the best line to take against this type of player? The hand above is the lines I took. Is there a better way to play a hand like this against this type of player?

Another hand came up shortly after where I think the people at the table were starting to catch onto to what the chip lead was doing. They also noticed as he knocked out like two people in a row using his strategy of going AI when he had TP or better. What do you think of the hand below? Just a total backfire and should I of walked away? As you can see I wasn’t getting the results I had hoped for with another player in the hand. I was hoping the other player wouldn’t of gotten involved, yet he went in over the top of the chip lead after checking it to him.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter

UTG+2 (t1495)
Hero (t4275)
MP2 (t1265)
MP3 (t5977)
CO (t420)
Button (t1025)
SB (t1935)
BB (t380)
UTG (t1555)
UTG+1 (t3500)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t60, 2 folds, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, MP3 calls t150, 4 folds, UTG calls t90.

Flop: (t495) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets t325, UTG goes all in for t1405, Hero goes all in for t4125, MP3 folds.

Should I of gotten away? Also, does my AI defeat my trap that I am setting up with my chip lead?

I have a lot more to post as I did get pretty far (for my standards) in this tourney. This will be the first part, and I greatly appreciate your help in advanced.

I am glad I have the 2+2 community to rely upon. You guys have helped my gameplay in the LHE so much and I hope you can do the same for my NL STT and MTT.

<3s

Exitonly · #2 09-15-2005, 12:58 AM

i'm really tired so if i missed something in all taht text i apologize.. i'm just going to give my opinion of what you should have done in the hands.

hand 1.. i guess fold to that raise, dunno what he would do that with besides a complete bluff that doesnt have you beat.

hand 2.. aggressive, dunno if it's good.. not sure if many worse hands pay you off.. and only hand you have beat that you get to fold is QQ, and he probably reraises PF with that. not sure what a better approach would be.

hand3.. definitely raise more PF to like 250.. i dont know about the check on the flop.. i generally don't like doing that after raising PF unless i flop a monster and i'm last to act, so it looks like i'm just taking a free card. otherwise it just feels too suspicious to do it. i think a weak bet is better for trapping.

mudbuddha · #3 09-15-2005, 01:09 AM

i generally aggree with exit,
the first hand, you fold, unless theres reason to believe not to believe him...
the 2nd hand you played a little too aggressive, pushing simply because he checked and called.. alot of people like to slow play hands like that .. hell i would if there was someone that aggro at the table. and if you mean by "this kind of palyer" you mean calling station, then you should bet your hands that you hit not ones that miss...

3rd hand, bet out, protect your hand, then if he goes over hte top you have options. i'd probably still call tho, good percent of the time your good. however, IMO..
if he flopped a monster i dont see him pushing right away, i.e. set, 2 pair..

DawnToDusk · #4 09-15-2005, 01:13 AM

So you would rather fold this hand and start your trek up hill for the rest of the tourney as opposed to try to double up here?

I mean I am playing with a lot of weak/passive players who are afraid to bet their strong hands, but it seems kind of awkward that this player who seemed really passive preflop and on the flop was just saying to me "I don't have a strong hand." And then all of a sudden him coming alive and not being weak/passive to me seemed kind of awkward.

Would this sway your reasoning at all?

DawnToDusk · #5 09-15-2005, 03:56 PM

Does anyone else got anything else to say?

zoobird · #6 09-15-2005, 05:01 PM

In a hurry, but as a general observation I think you're playing too loose and aggressive with these hands post flop. JJ against multiple opponents is not a strong hand when an overcard comes up on the flop. I really don't think this is the type of situation Harrington is talking about. With JJ you'd want to get your money in pre-flop against one opponent, or post flop if no overcards come. If I'm remembering right, his advice is for situation more like you have QQ on the button, someone raises, you re-raise, they go all-in. They could have AA or KK, but they could also have JJ or AK and since blinds go up quickly you take a chance and go all-in too.

DawnToDusk · #7 09-15-2005, 05:45 PM

So in hands like these where I have JJ and I make a raise PF and the flop brings an overcard, should I make a continuation bet, and if I get called in that spot play very caustiously and expect to cut my losses?

nath · #8 09-15-2005, 06:05 PM

Hands 1 and 2 if you're going to raise JJ out of the blinds you must raise much more. Too many people are in and you're going to have to play the entire hand out of position.
Hand 3 you must also raise more preflop.
In all these cases, the same principle holds: with a premium starting hand it is always better to isolate or take down the pot than to build a large multiway pot.

Postflop comments:

Hand 1 I dump to the turn raise, but you bet it pretty weakly after the flop.

Hand 2 I don't know why you took this line on the turn since the turn filled the flush, and now that beats you as well as trip kings. Check to the all-in with TP or better guy and see what he does (I probably fold to an all in if he does make it, since too many hands beat you and even LAGs pick up hands once in a while).

Hand 3, flop line is fine if you're trying to trap a super aggressive player, although betting out probably would work just as well. I have no idea what the all-in check-raiser has, but I assume he beats you from the way you wrote about it?
(And yes, the all-in does defeat a trap, since you took away the chance to milk a side pot from the big stack LAG for more of his chips.)

jprince · #9 09-15-2005, 06:33 PM

Hey, I've recently read both Harrington books a couple times a piece also. My take on the first hand is similar to the first couple responses. You are probably behind to a pair of Ks. He showed no aggression pre-flop for a variety of reasons. 1)The games are passive and he would rather not press a marginal holding 2)He correctly wanted to limp with a small PP like 2s or 3s and decided your raise might be a steal with no one showing any strength. He hit his hand on the flop and wanted to slow it down a bit and then decided to cut it off after another spade hit. 3)He has something like KQ KJs or was even planning to limp with KK (which I might do about 15% of the time in early position to vary patterns). 4) other holdings might be A 5 of spades. He flopped the straight draw and now has a draw to the nut flush. (this play is foolish and I wish more opponents made it)

On balance, it looks like your up against a K of some sort. He might just be a poor player. But of all his holdings you are only ahead of the most unusual and unlikely.

Harrington does say to push hands like TP and trips but you have neither and are probably up against one or the other. You only have second pair and its a shame, you took a pretty good hit in the hand. JJ is one of the toughest to play.

Interesting hands. Thanks.

DawnToDusk · #10 09-15-2005, 07:20 PM

Thanks for the comments and suggestions guys. I appreciate it.

When we are in the blinds with a premium hand, we obviously want to cut the field down to heads up and if not that two people. What are we raising usually?

I have a problem with getting good hands in the blinds early in the tournament. I understand what I must do and thin the field, but all of you are suggesting to raising a substantial amount more than maybe 4-5BB. Here a couple of questions.

1) It is early in the tournament still. Everyone started with 1000 in chips and the blinds are either 10/15, 10/20, or 15/30. Stacks are still relatively close to each other in size. You get a premium hand in the SB/BB. There are three limpers in the pot already. Action is to you. How much are you going to raise?

2) It is still relatively early in the tournament. The stacks have started to detach themselves with short stacks and big stacks appearing. There are still those that are sitting around their initial stack as well. The blinds are either 25/50, 50/100, or 75/150. You get a premium hand in the SB/BB. There are three limpers in the pot already. Action is to you. What do you raise?

This might be a little more vague or a generalization of a situation that might arise, but it seems to me these are the tough situations I am facing early in the tourney with a premium hand in the SB/BB.

In situation 1), it seems that you are suggesting to raise a substantial sum of maybe 7-8BB? Is this becuase people are so loose in the beginning and they don't mind calling off some of their stack with stuff like KJ, JTs, and Axs?

In situation 2) the tourney has gone on a lil longer. Should I just keep my raise to the 4-5BB zone? Would the increased blinds here make a difference, maybe affecting some peoples thinking and saying "T9s was worth 75 in the beginning but not its not worth 200." Or simply put, you think a raise will get more respect later when the blinds are higher? If thats the case, is there a need to raise 7-8BB?

Thanks again guys.