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#1
05-02-2005, 04:57 PM
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2+2 article is all wrong? Deception in NL hold em.
http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/c...risse0505.html
I do not get this article at all. In fact, I disagree with most of it's premises, logic, and conlcusions. I tried to get some responses in the Magazine forum without success. I am now pasting my response below [ QUOTE ] I disagree with this article almost entirely. For some perspective, I play 6 max $400 NL on Party ($2/4 blinds). If I have a weak hand, I am betting strongly; If I have a medium hand, I am betting strongly; If I have a monster, I am betting strongly; If I have a gutshot with position, I am betting strongly. If I decide to bluff, I am bluffing strongly. Anyone with me here? Perhaps this is just a more 6 max view, or perhaps I have a lot to learn. I am interested in others' viewpoints. [/ QUOTE ] Also, here is a response from fimbulwinter: [ QUOTE ] just a few gems: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I cannot begin to imagine how slow playing could ever be "catastrophic," especially in no-limit, where there's plenty of time to get your opponents' chips in the middle. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More than anything though, it's critical that we not deceive ourselves into thinking that straightforward play is preferable in these games. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your opponents will always be guessing, and the more they guess, the more often they guess wrongly. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- this article is one of the worst i've seen in the magazine yet. the whole thing sounds like the advice losing players give one another while at the table. the very definition of a soft game is that the players don't know the proper plays. only when the players know about and make those proper plays should suboptimal plays be employed for the sake of deception. fim [/ QUOTE ] I am hoping to get a discussion going here. 
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#3
05-02-2005, 05:04 PM
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Re: 2+2 article is all wrong? Deception in NL hold em.
[ QUOTE ]
you realize that these articles are written by forum posters, right? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I do. Number one, I was wondering how it got approved. Number two, I felt somewhat obligated to expose it if it really is that bad. Number three, perhaps the author is thinking 4 levels ahead of me, and if that's the case, I certainly want to learn. My solution: Generate discussion.
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#4
05-02-2005, 06:08 PM
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Re: 2+2 article is all wrong? Deception in NL hold em.
So, the magazine article is really setting up a straw man. Nobody advocates that your bet sizes exactly match your hand strength. For example, most successful NL players, even at .5-1 and below, understand the concept of standard preflop raises.
He's wrong more generally. It can be very profitable at low-stakes to bet with strong hands and fold with weak hands. Most opponents won't notice or won't stay at the table long enough to change their play with you. The meta-game value of raising preflop with suited connectors or showing off a big semi-bluff overbet is lost against the Party $25 fish. Still, your line incorporates a lot of deception too. If you bet all made hands and draws strongly, opponents can't tell which is which. As I'm sure you know, this gives you folding equity with your weak hands and helps get you paid off with monsters. Bottom line, some deception is essential; the kind of deception which goes on at high level NL (Hmmm... El Diablo has been doing a lot of turn check-raise bluffs lately...) is useless at low stakes NL.
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#5
05-02-2005, 07:51 PM
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Re: 2+2 article is all wrong? Deception in NL hold em.
[ QUOTE ]
you realize that these articles are written by forum posters, right? [/ QUOTE ] in my defense: Yes, i realize that forum posters write the articles. I also realize that one of the reasons this forum is far and above the best is the fact that it has very good players who are not afraid to rock the boat and call someone out if they think something is awry. anecdotally, ML4L is one of the nicest posters on the forum and he called many people out in his post in this thread. I've been called out, so have other posters. some get called out so often that they stop posting bad advice, which is a boon to the forum. could we be a little more civil? yes. would it be better any other way? no. fim
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#6
05-02-2005, 08:57 PM
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Re: 2+2 article is all wrong? Deception in NL hold em.
fim,
what i was trying to say with my post was that, many forum posters give bad and incorrect advice. so it shouldnt be a surprise that a magazine article written by these same posters would be of bad quality as well.
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#7
05-02-2005, 08:58 PM
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Re: 2+2 article is all wrong? Deception in NL hold em.
which poster wrote this article?
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#8
05-02-2005, 08:59 PM
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Re: 2+2 article is all wrong? Deception in NL hold em.
I think fimbul prettty much nailed it. The standard play is the correct play 95%+ of the time, and until your opponents know the correct play, and know that you know the correct play, and know that you will partake in the correct play, does the incorrect play (deception) work better.
Yeah, that article was weak.
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#10
05-03-2005, 05:36 AM
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Re: 2+2 article is all wrong? Deception in NL hold em.
A lot of very poor beginning players overvalue deception and trickery and have a great intuitive understanding of the entire "weak is strong" mentality. Straightforward play against these people is extremely profitable because they will always overthink the hand and make the wrong play. The entire premise of straightforward play decieves them. Bet big on a monotone flop? Must be top pair, trying to price out the draws! Bet big from the big blind on a flop of 622? He must have a six! (So I'll slowplay my pocket sevens and hope to double up!) As I see them say sometimes in the limit forums... "Fastplaying is the new slowplaying"
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