Got trashed for this one

droolie · #1 06-06-2005, 01:02 PM

SB is a LAG. He's been whinging and pissingh off the table everytime someone draws out on him. He didn't make it to showdown that often though and seemed like he could find a fold when necessary.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6 BB

How bad is checking this turn? My opponent berated me for a while after this hand ended.

Subby · #2 06-06-2005, 01:09 PM

I guess the question is, why did you check the turn?

droolie · #3 06-06-2005, 01:16 PM

I didn't think I'd get any better hands to fold and thought that draws were unlikely to be calling the flop. I thought that chances were pretty decent this guy connected in some odd way with the flop. I didn't want to fold to a C/R and I therefore thought I might as well take the free card and hope to hit the river or possibly induce a bluff from trash (hence my call). I often fire the second barrel when the board is more coordinated and my opponents might be on draws but in this case I just thought there was such a small chance he was drawing I thought checking might be correct.

Jeffage · #4 06-06-2005, 01:37 PM

Easy turn bet. He could have peeled with anything on that ragged flop.

Jeff

aslowjoe · #5 06-06-2005, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Easy turn bet. He could have peeled with anything on that ragged flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed.
Being checked raise is only going to cost you 1 more BB and you might hvae as many as 10 outs and maybe still ahead.
Not betting allows your opponent to draw for free thus maybe costing you 4BB's

Mig · #6 06-06-2005, 02:25 PM

On a board like this one doesn't it look strange to have a call from SB ? I mean there is almost no draw possible, if he had A8+ he would probably have 3bet it preflop? Why would you throw more money on the turn with A high? Anyway if you are going to call a river bet you have to bet the turn and take the free showdown...

Surfbullet · #7 06-06-2005, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway if you are going to call a river bet you have to bet the turn and take the free showdown...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you don't. That's a good line against a passive player. However, this LAG will often take a stab on the river with hands hero beats because of the weakness he showed by checking through the turn. Additionally, this will often allow hero the chance to raise when he hits.

Surf

operaman · #8 06-06-2005, 03:37 PM

case 1 You are in the lead
since a lag will bet the river you wont be giving any bets away. in fact you might gain one bet if the player would have folded the turn. (Ax and hits a ace on river.) You are giving a free card though.

case 2 You are behind
checking is clearly the correct action.

I don't see any reason to think case 1 is much more common than case 2. So with what was given checking appears to me to be the best action.

SomethingClever · #9 06-06-2005, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't make it to showdown that often though and seemed like he could find a fold when necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must bet the turn then.

droolie · #10 06-06-2005, 05:44 PM

Villian shows down 24o MHING.

He says in the chat box "thanks for the free card."

I said "as if you would've folded"

He says, "I don't chase inside str8 draws"

I said "you just did"

After reading commentary on this I'm more confused about when checking the turn is correct. Part of the reason why I checked is that I seem to always fire the second barrel and either get check-raised and have a tough decision or get to take the free showdown and get shown bottom pair. This happens a lot.

I've been trying to tone down my HU auto-betting on the turn and river because I seem to be spewing so much in these situations. This ragged flop seemed to offer very little reason for SB to hang around especially since he called my pf raise. When the J hit on the turn that put a 2nd in play card on the board plus a flush draw and made me feel even less likely to get a fold off a turn bet. Getting C/Red would really suck here and seems very likely to happen with anybody holding any semi-bluff draw or pair hoping I'm pushing overcards. I've been thinking that showing weakness and inducing river bluffs might be a better route because it costs the same and I always get to show my hand down and I only pay more when I hit on the river. The obvious problem is the free card I'm giving but what am I really protecting here? My hand is weak and I'm likely not wining at showdown anyways. If we're both drawing he'll miss most times and will either bluff at me or check again. If he has a weak made hand he might give me a free showdown and I save a BB.

In this case the free card let the guy hit a very unlikely draw but my experience at 1/2 6max so far has been that players chase any live draw HU and will call down with bottom pair enough that auto-betting for folds/value with overcards is costing me a lot. If the board is very coordinated or has really obvious draws I'm still auto-betting here but in this case with such a crap board I thought checking might be good.

What guidelines do you guys use in figuring out when to check behind HU on the turn? I'm pretty sure this is a weak part of my game right now as I cannot articulate my strategy here.