Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?

RPatterson · #1 05-31-2004, 01:47 AM

I'm reading his article at http://www.philhellmuth.com/hotw.html and I'm starting to seriously question if he could even turn a profit at online tournaments. His play seems incredibly weak like he always assumes his opponent has him beat. Phil also doesn't seem to adjust to the calibre of opponent he is in the pot with.

Also maybe I'm retarded but it seems like he's making fundamental mistakes like smooth calling with Kings in a multi-way raised pot and then folding when rags flop? What the hell is he doing? Or he knows his opponent is bluffing but rather than shut him down he lets him catch an overcard?

The worst is how Phil will say "I put him on pocket Jacks but I folded my Queens anyways, he showed 7's but that's alright, don't want a 7 to come off and break me". What world does he live in? He gets a read that he is a 4-1 favorite to call all-in but he folds for fear he'll be drawn out on? How will he ever win a tournament playing like that?

I'm starting to think Helmuth sucks.

sucka · #2 05-31-2004, 02:26 AM

One thing is for sure...

He is about the whiniest SOB I've ever seen. I especially love the way he is 'entitled' to these pots that he lost and when someone who flops top pair to Phil's overpair and then hits their kicker on the river, Phil's suffered a bad beat.

What the hell is this crap?

Now, near the end, I actually did have tears in my eyes behind my fine mirrored Oakleys, so that no one could see them. Why had all of this BS happened to me? Are you kidding me? Is this even remotely fair? At the break my parents had finally arrived in town to console me, and pump me up.

Mommy and Daddy have to come to town to 'pump him up'?

Good lord. Does this guy really think that with 2500 something entrants that he's going to be at the final table every damn year?

RPatterson · #3 05-31-2004, 02:35 AM

Sounds like someone still has self-esteem issues.

Nick B. · #4 05-31-2004, 02:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm reading his article at http://www.philhellmuth.com/hotw.html and I'm starting to seriously question if he could even turn a profit at online tournaments. His play seems incredibly weak like he always assumes his opponent has him beat. Phil also doesn't seem to adjust to the calibre of opponent he is in the pot with.

Also maybe I'm retarded but it seems like he's making fundamental mistakes like smooth calling with Kings in a multi-way raised pot and then folding when rags flop? What the hell is he doing? Or he knows his opponent is bluffing but rather than shut him down he lets him catch an overcard?

The worst is how Phil will say "I put him on pocket Jacks but I folded my Queens anyways, he showed 7's but that's alright, don't want a 7 to come off and break me". What world does he live in? He gets a read that he is a 4-1 favorite to call all-in but he folds for fear he'll be drawn out on? How will he ever win a tournament playing like that?

I'm starting to think Helmuth sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't play to win anymore, he plays to not lose.

West · #5 05-31-2004, 02:41 AM

Yeah, I was pretty surprised reading his account also. Seems to me with something around 10,000 chips midway through day 1, the time to decide to fold KK because, "I can win the event if I fold my hand" is before you've called almost a quarter of your stack and received a ten high flop. Should have looked in to the guy's soul preflop.

Although I really can understand taking risks in certain situations where you think an opponent may bluff all their chips to you, in this situation, with $11,000 in the pot ($15,000 with his call), and the other guy, who he makes for bluffing, with just $8000 left, I don't see how on earth he just calls.

On ESPN a while back, they showed what I think was the most recent U.S. Poker Championship final table, which had Hellmuth, Eric Seidel, John Hennigan and the guy who won it, Toto Leonidas. It got down to Leonidas, Seidel and Hellmuth, and Leonidas basically ran over them with aggressiveness. One hand, Leonidas raised up with AQ, Hellmuth reraised with AK, and Leonidas reraised him big (can't recall amounts or if it was all in or what)...Hellmuth folded, then as Leonidas turned over his cards to show, he pointed and said, "Aces!", cringing when he saw tthe AQ. Anyway, Leonidas had been throwing chips around left and right bluffing, but on this particular hand, Phil had pocket queens. I think Toto had JT. Board was low cards I think, and Toto made some huge bet relative to the pot with nothing. Phil thought about it for a while, saying out loud, "why so much Toto?"...in the end, he decided to call, rather than reraising him. If I recall correctly, a king came off on the turn, Toto bet again, and Phil called again. I think the river hit one of Toto's cards, and he bet huge again....and Phil folded. It's possible I am remembering this incorrectly, but I think I basically have it right. Very similar play to the one above.

"After all, I could have gone out if he'd hit a seven" is a pretty ridiculous statement.

It could be that because of his reputation, he may be more likely to be bluffed at at the main event by players who want to say they bluffed Phil Hellmuth. He still managed to last quite a while even with the hands I'm sure he'd like to have over, which is to his credit. I wonder if he would have shared some of these hands with us had he not folded those big hands face up, or showed them to the camera? Either way, I do give him credit for talking about them. But it does go to show, the "pros" make big mistakes too.

Bobby Digital · #6 05-31-2004, 03:12 AM

Once in a while I have a great read on my opponent. When I do I don't like to risk a lot of chips preflop because I know his actions on the flop will tell me what I need to know.

I think the problem is phil has taken this concept way too far. He is so confident in his own reading abilities that he seems to almost never risk his chips before the flop. The causes him to make silly errors because he feels he can make it up somewhere else since he "knows his opponents so well."

SlickRick · #7 05-31-2004, 03:14 AM

I remember the first shot I took at the UB 80-160 game was because Phil was sitting in it. Prior to this I had not played anything bigger online than 30-60. I watched Phil play for about an hour and read all the comments that were coming from him like, "How can you play that crap? Call my raise with AT? Are u nuts? This 4k is nothing cause I'm up 50k this month off the 80 (game)". Needless to say I made a quick nice little score off this game (mailnly off of Phil) and subsequently deposited it back with interest in future 80-160 games. To me it was taking a shot but I really thought that Phil was the fishiest guy on the table that night.

Phil is one of the best when he isn't playing against himself. I guess Phil would rather pad his ego than his wallet sometimes.

joker122 · #8 05-31-2004, 03:18 AM

oh my god phil is such a little b*tch.

Mastermmmm · #9 05-31-2004, 03:30 AM

I sure would hate to count Phil out of the running. He has made too much money. The actions he took in that article were there to keep from being put out of the tourney, not to win or lose the hand. I can understand his not wishing to go all in when he did not have the 'nuts'. I may be wrong, but he sure seems to know what he is talking about when I see him on TV. Of course, this is but my own humble opinion... I could be wrong... or bluffing... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] <font color="red"> </font>

laceratedsky · #10 05-31-2004, 03:33 AM

I think everyone whines from time to time. But this guy has made an art of it. I might be insanely pissed about some jackass who knocks me out of the tournament with 52o or some such, but, I would at least try to find a nice quiet place to punch the hell out of the nearest inanimate object.

Laying down those Kings made Phil seem like he was just plain playing scared. Not a good image for a "Pro" me thinks.

laceratedsky
http://www.wtfman.com/poker/