is Ace-King-GOD???????.....at 25 NL PARTY???????

[nickey009]

I'd have to say that this whole thread had me laughing pretty hard.

I'll take a stab at answering what I think might be your question. You've already stated that you aren't an idiot and you know that you are ahead of AX. True. But you are afraid of that AX making two pair somewhere along the line. Yeah that's a possibility and as everyone else has stated it's totally player dependent but you can get a feel for where you are in the hand. You made an example of someone raising you after you bet 2 bucks into a 5 dollar pot. Well 2 bucks into a 5 dollar pot is a pretty wussy bet. If he raised you 2 bucks raise him back. Or call and lead out on the turn for like 7 bucks. If he comes firing over the top again then there's a good chance you'll be looking at 2 pair or a set. By re-raising your re-raise he's telling you that he can beat TPTK.

To the other 2+2er....this is my first response to a question. How'd I do? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
AK OFF/SUITED, WHATEVER, I HAVE BEEN LIMPING WITH IT TO TRAP. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I LIMP OR NOT, IMPLYING THAT I LIMP MOST OF THE TIME, SHOULD I GET COMMMITTED WITH IT WHEN AN ACE OR KING FLOPS WITH A SAFE BOARD OR NO?....WITH ACES OR KINGS IM ALL NO MATTER WHAT, BUT WIHT AK AND A PAIR ON THE FLOP, IM USUALLY AFRAID OF 2 PAIR(especiallly w/ an ace on the flop)...so...should i committ myself big time, or be afraid of the hands such as the ace -rags(which everyone plays(a2,a3,a4,a5,a6,a7,a8,a9,10)....ETC.. i tried being more agressive with the big slick(AK) tonight and got paid off by ace rag....thooughts... please dont give me elementary [censored] like "with ak, you'lll probably have another ace out kicked, so you probably have them"....that doesnt't help me. im not retarded, i am cautious. any help?...i know at these [censored] 'stakes' i post at its hard to find legitimate players to comment on my threads, but anyway, thoughts

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Well my first comment is that capital letters are not an all or nothing proposition. It will suffice to capitalize just the first letter of the first word of each sentence and the word "I". Coherent and complete sentences will also help when you are looking for a response. 2+2 gives you the opportunity to preview your post before it is posted -- I recommend doing that.

On the poker issue that I believe is being raised -- I typically raise pre-flop with my AK (to an unraised pot). I don't mind a couple of players seeing the flop but I don't want to see a family pot. On the rare occassion that I limp with AK and catch TPTK, my play depends on my position. Assuming a board that does not contain a high pair, is not suited, and cannot make a completed straight, if I am in an early position, I would likely make a pot size bet but I also might check. In middle or late position I would definitely bet about the size of the pot. I don't think I go all-in here unless my stack is less than 2x the size of the pot.

[nsj]

[ QUOTE ]
if this is your style; riase to 2 or 3 pf w/ aces, kings, or queens; limp w/ ak or aq...

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I would suggest first and foremost you change your style. Limping with AQ and AK at these limits invites those with with xK or xA to limp along, and then they hit two pair. If you raised it significantly pre-flop, got a couple of callers, and then saw an innocuous flop like K73r, then the only thing you need to fear is 77 or 33, really. Betting the flop will usually let you know if you're up against either.


[ QUOTE ]
how far would you take ak with a pair on the flop, hwich seems also safe, such as k82 rainbow.

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Without a raise pre-flop to drive out (most) of the crap hands, most hands will just SEEM safe. That's the point. If you limp, you're stuck with that uncertainty. Sure, the odd idiot will call a big raise with xA or xK, but it will happen far less often if seeing the flop costs them a lot more than a quarter.

Defining your hand with a raise also limits the number of holdings those who call it could have. That's the game, really. Then, you won't fear a flop that you shouldn't fear in the first place. Anyone who knows a thing about the game is folding 8K and 2K to raises, and probably 22 as well. So, in this hypothetical instance, you only need to worry about 88 (or KK, but you'll hear from him long before the flop...)

[Jeff]

No offense here, but don't take up writing. You aren't getting responses because people don't understand. (Erm, some responses now, I took a nap in between starting to post this and finishing it)


The OP is stating, in plain english:

He limps with AK. When he flops TPTK on a non threatening board, he wonders how safe his hand is from stuff like 2 pair.

My answer:

It depends. :P

If you are talking about calling an all in, it largely depends on the player. Pushing all in will get you the pot more often than not, plus you will occasionally win or lose a huge one.

I normally play limit, but have played NL at the $2, $10, and $25 buyin level with modest profits, for what it's worth. I'm not as experienced at NL as most of you.


Not raising AKo preflop because you will be "pot commited" is a bad idea. You aren't pot commited when you stick a few bucks into the pot, it's not like you are putting 1/4 of your stack in there or anything. By raising AKo preflop, you increase your chances of winning the hand (If you don't understand this concept, please quit playing poker), and you also add value to the pot - value that you have a larger share of than the vast majority of what's calling you.

Note that in some cases it can be okay or even great to limp AK - I have done it heads up to trap a particularly agressive player, and for that purpose it works well, but most random people in a $25 buyin game aren't going to notice that you limped with AK - limping it serves no purpose but to sabotage your hand. AK is a very good hand, suited or not, but you need to protect it, it is vulnerable (Particularly offsuit)

If you raise preflop, you don't need to fear flush and low straight draws nearly as much - because there won't be as many people playing random small suited cards because they are suited. Most crappy players know to fold their 86s to a 4BB raise preflop. The ones that don't (Hopefully present in small numbers, IE 1-2, not 5) will pay you off - but allow too many of them into your hand, and, while in the long run you will still make money, your variance will increase quite a bit. The same thing goes for 2 pair - people probably won't have it on a ragged flop if you raise - people are much more likely to call you with a pocket pair, suited connectors, 1 gaps, etc - so a twotone flop of A76 is much more dangerous looking than a rainbow AQ5

So, if you raise preflop, you have much less reason to fear something like an A34 flop, because the chance someone is holding 52 is significantly reduced. With less people in the hand, the chance of someone flopping a flush draw is drastically reduced too - even if you see a couple suited cards on the flop, you can't really fear it, especially if you make a bet large enough that they don't have the pot odds to call - if they call, they will be handing you money in the long run, and if they fold, they will be handing you money.


So, raise AKo preflop, and don't worry about someone with 2 pair - they aren't terribly common unless you have 6+ people seeing the flop on a regular basis, and even then it isn't something you should always worry about - each person flops 2 pair about 1.5% of the time.

Start raising AKo preflop, and don't worry about 2 pair, but keep in mind that you will run into it from time to time. Also remember that you have some hidden outs with 2 pair - running any #s higher than the bottom pair, so it isn't quite a 4 outer, more like a 6 or 7 outer versus a made two pair.

Personally, I'd be comfortable pushing all in, in respose to a normal sized bet on the flop, but I'd be more comfortable just making a pot sized bet into 2-4 people, where I basically want one of them to call with a dominated ace or king. Look out for the loose callers that will call large bets with < king kicker (Especially AT, AJ) after a sizable preflop raise, you can take great advantage of that with AK and AQ (I wouldn't try with AJ unless they often show down with A6-T though.

Backdoor flushes to the ace add some value to these, as do gutshots, but if the flop comes QJ9, your hand isn't looking quite so great, not only does someone with a T have an OESD, but your kings are quite useless too.

Also remember that heads up, there's a pretty good chance your opponent didn't hit a pair, so don't be afraid to make a nice sized bet into them, there is a high chance they are folding without a pair, or even when they are ahead with a weak pair.


Just don't NOT raise AKo the majority of the time, it is bad, bad play. If I were playing at a very, very agressive table, a limp reraise could work, but it could be a very, very bad idea with AKo if you get called on a very large raise and then you don't pair on the flop, they probably have QQ or better, likely KK or AA, unless they are hideously bad players.

[roma12]

yea i guess i should raise with the ak. i used to, then i tried limping for a bit. just one point though. you say that if i raise to about 4 bb, then i can knock out hands like a7 and pretty much expect to be called by pocket pairs and such. but by doing this, what type of action then could you be looking for on the flop? if you play cautiously, could you maybe make more money but letting those shitty dominated hands like a7,q10, k10,kj, etc, in-because im pretty sure alot fold them to a decent raise with such hands. yea, if i raised i woudlnt have to be afraid of a7 flopping 2 pair, but do i want him to fold pf if i have ak?

or maybe one should just hope people call a raise with those types of hands and then play it from there. i do not know.

[Jeff]

If you raise it, there will be one or two idiots that call you with something like A8 (My limited experience at Party) - you want one or two of them in your game, because you will make lots of money from people that play dominated hands against you. Raising it causes the majority of people to drop bad hands, but many will call a small raise with crap like KTo, QTo, and a loose raiser may just reraise you with AJ/AQ - watch for these people as you can then show even more agression against them and take their money, but don't misread someone as showing AK or even AQ versus someone with AA or KK won't work so well.

By raising, you are knocking out the people with 94s and such, and smart players will be folding stuff like A8, KT, etc (Knocking good players out = good, especially if they are hands that a bad player will call with).

As the preflop raiser, in a 2-3 handed game, you can often take a blind stab at the pot with a reasonably sized bet (1/2 pot size at least, probably - I'm not too good at this stuff) - if the opponent didn't hit top pair, there's a reasonable chance he'll fold, a tricky player might bluff reraise (Keep notes!), but most people are quite straightforward so if you get raised significantly, you should be able to let go of it.

When people showdown but muck, Party lets you look at the hands they had. Make use of this whenever you can - you will see a LOT of IDIOTIC hands, whereupon you can note that for whomever is playing like that.

[kpux]

In my experience, there are enough idiots at Party NL25 tables that I would be willing to go to the felt with TPTK because they will call all-ins with TPNK. If I bet out a decent amount on the flop, and it gets raised back to me, I'm pushing almost all the time.

You'll be up against a worse kicker far more than you'll be up against two pair or a set. Party NL25 is full of idiots, exploit this.

[SpiderMnkE]

[ QUOTE ]
AK OFF/SUITED, WHATEVER, I HAVE BEEN LIMPING WITH IT TO TRAP. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I LIMP OR NOT, IMPLYING THAT I LIMP MOST OF THE TIME, SHOULD I GET COMMMITTED WITH IT WHEN AN ACE OR KING FLOPS WITH A SAFE BOARD OR NO?....WITH ACES OR KINGS IM ALL NO MATTER WHAT, BUT WIHT AK AND A PAIR ON THE FLOP, IM USUALLY AFRAID OF 2 PAIR(especiallly w/ an ace on the flop)...so...should i committ myself big time, or be afraid of the hands such as the ace -rags(which everyone plays(a2,a3,a4,a5,a6,a7,a8,a9,10)....ETC.. i tried being more agressive with the big slick(AK) tonight and got paid off by ace rag....thooughts... please dont give me elementary [censored] like "with ak, you'lll probably have another ace out kicked, so you probably have them"....that doesnt't help me. im not retarded, i am cautious. any help?...i know at these [censored] 'stakes' i post at its hard to find legitimate players to comment on my threads, but anyway, thoughts

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't even bother to read this thread because of how annoying it was trying to decipher this retard babble.

You forgot to unclick the caps lock by the way.

The title of your post, and the post itself just blew me away. I've never really felt like there were down syndrome posters here until now.

Oh yeah... limping AK because you are "cautious" is a good way to lose your stack. I dunno if that has been addressed.. I'm sure it has... like I said I couldn't even read this thread.

I probably shouldn't have responded at all... but I was so shocked to hear from a special needs child.