Roy Cooke on Cheating and Cheaters

[Lawrence Ng]

Taken from RGP,

Roy Cooke's post.


I m mostly a lurker on rgp and I know some people resent that I don t post more.
As you probably know I have other forums I write for. And I have 3 jobs my
Internet job, my Real Estate business, and playing poker. Plus there s always a
book in the works. (My new Rule Book from ConJelCo should be out in June or
July, finally!). And I have a family with whom I love to spend time. Then there
s golf. Can t have life without golf. So I don t have time to post here often,
but I do stop into rgp from time-to-time to peruse the latest in flames :-)


Of all that I have read here over the years, perhaps the most interesting things
have been the GCA posts on cheating. I recently wrote two articles about
cheating in poker in a general way.
(http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...name/Roy_Cooke). These
articles stirred a lot of conversation and mail. Fact is though, that there s
lots more I could have said, but for a variety of reasons, including space
limitations, I didn t.


The bottom line is that cheating exists, is probably less prevalent than most
players think, and the industry has a vested interest (these days things were
different in the old days) in keeping the games honest. Some of the things I
might have said have already been said by Russ.


I have been playing poker a long time, and I have known Russ Georgiev longer
than that. As a young teen I had visions of being a champion bowler. Russ was a
top bowler in the Pacific Northwest at that time, and I bowled against him in
pot games at Magic Lanes. (I lost.) Later when I started sneaking into poker
rooms at 15, Russ was there. And his reputation way back then was much what he
has told you all as a person who knew more than the average bear about
cheating, and reputedly wasn t bashful about using what he knew.


We were never friends but we knew each other in more than passing. I also ran
into him at the table from time-to-time over the last three decades in LA and
Vegas. Usually when he sat down I figured it was time to get up. Not that I knew
I d get cheated by him, but I suspected I might. I am sure of one thing though:
When Russ tells you he s an expert on cheating, he ain t lying.


Russ is by nature a fellow given to exaggeration and hyperbole. (I have a few
friends with the same tendencies.) He tends to overstate the case to make his
point. But that doesn t mean the case should be ignored.


I do not know that every detail of cheating described by Russ is true. When he
describes specific incidents, I wasn t there and I don t know though I have
heard some of the same stories Russ has told from other (more?) credible
sources. I would guess there is at least a kernel of truth in a lot of Russ s
accusations. The fact that when he names names he doesn t get sued is telling
to me, although I have been told by some the reason they don t sue is that they
could never collect.





Mind you, this is not a blanket endorsement of everything Russ says there s
lots I just don t have knowledge about. Further, there are differences among
what you think is true, what you know is true and what you can prove is true.
It concerns me some that Russ doesn t always differentiate these. He treats all
three with equal dignity; he doesn t distinguish between a fact and a belief
----- a belief which may or may not in truth be a fact, but which in either case
cannot be dispositively established. But the man does know his stuff on this
subject.


Also, to any person Russ has pointed a finger at I know that some of his
accusations are true, I believe some of his other accusations are true, and many
of his accusations I have no personal knowledge of. It s likely that in some
cases he s incorrect. I m not necessarily talking about YOU.


Here s the bottom line if you re playing $10-$20 or lower, to the extent there
are cheaters they tend to be incompetent and get little edge. As you play
higher, the likelihood of being effectively cheated grows with each level you
step up. If you play VERY high regularly (I m guessing most rgpers don t) it is
almost a certainty that you will eventually run into some form of cheating. In
tournaments, you want to know who is playing the same money and as with ring
play the higher the stakes, the more risk you have.


On the Internet, you really want to play sites with published procedures for
stopping cheats, especially if you play $15-$30 and higher. Don t just rely on
celebrity spokesmen affiliated with a site ask exactly how they protect you.
Also if you suspect collusion do yourself, the game and everybody else a favor
and report it right away with the players names and the hand number of the
suspicious hand.


Russ s pokermafia site is the only place in the world I know of that regularly
posts information about cheats and protecting against cheats. And though he
certainly has a history as a slimeball (which is a big part of why he is so
credible on this subject), and though he is prone to exaggeration the higher
you play the more you need to pay attention to much of what he has to say.


Russ, I ain t particularly interested in being friends but when you re right
you re right. And since I m sort of launching my own attack on cheaters I
figured you deserved the courtesy of me saying so. You said it publicly first
and loudest.


I won t be posting again on this thread, though I will stop in from time-to-time
to see what y all have to say. In between my three jobs and occasional
websurfing, including stops at pokermafia.com to help keep me on top of
protecting myself against being cheated. And of course, golf.


Life is Good :-)


Roy Cooke

I am sometimes still in awe shock at the how rampant cheating is at poker, but when respected figures like Cooke and Caro speak up against the grain, I can't help but nod my head.

Surprisingly enough, I often find that higher level forms ofcheating does not get discussed often enough here on 2+2.

Lawrence

[trying2learn]

i've wondered the same thing. i've also wondered why ethics aren't discussed more here as well. an occasional post for sure, but the grey areas that exist in and around this game are fascinating, and it's hard to have discussions about them without threads turning into flame wars.

[slickpoppa]

Are we sure that this is actually Roy Cooke?

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Are we sure that this is actually Roy Cooke?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we sure you are slickpoppa?

Lawrence

[TStoneMBD]

For those that care, I'm pretty sure I am me right now.

[JohnG]

It's been confirmed on rgp that it is Roy Cooke.

[Smoothcall]

Yes this was a very interesting post by Roy C. He sounds as he's basically saying that Russ G.(the guy everybody called a liar on rgp) is telling the truth for the most part about his claims. That is some major credibility to Russ. As he has always been slammed but now a prominent perosn in the poker world has come out and said you should listen to him. I always wonderd if he was giving truthful claims of many of the big name poker players. I guess this means some of his claims may be true. Roy C. doesn't say which he knows to be true. That would be very interesting.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
I recently wrote two articles about cheating in poker in a general way.

[/ QUOTE ]

It might help him prove his articles on cheating are worth something and keep his job if he can show that Cheating is rampant. Who better to help with that than the self proclaimed grand poobah of cheaters.


[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is that cheating exists

[/ QUOTE ]

That ain't a bottom line. The bottom line is "I have proof that cheating exists and this is it".

[ QUOTE ]
When Russ tells you he s an expert on cheating, he ain t lying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that he never provides any proof that Russ is a cheater. He evens says that he didn't play poker with him. So how is he so sure of Russ's prowess?

[ QUOTE ]
He tends to overstate the case to make his point. But that doesn t mean the case should be ignored.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this point is open for debate. I disagree with Mr. Cooke.

[ QUOTE ]
I do not know that every detail of cheating described by Russ is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

O.K so what details do you know are true? Which details can you verify from first hand knowledge and not hearsay?

[ QUOTE ]
When he describes specific incidents, I wasn t there and I don t know though I have heard some of the same stories Russ has told from other (more?) credible
sources.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Russ is not credible? Or am I imgining he is saying that?


[ QUOTE ]
I would guess there is at least a kernel of truth in a lot of Russ s accusations

[/ QUOTE ]

A kernal of truth! "I guess"! Wow is he for real?

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that when he names names he doesn t get sued is telling to me, although I have been told by some the reason they don t sue is that they could never collect.


[/ QUOTE ]

Telling? Look, not only might these fellows not collect they might find it very expensive and time consuming to sue. They might find that jurors might not be very sympathetic towards professional gamblers. Give me a break.

[ QUOTE ]
Mind you, this is not a blanket endorsement of everything Russ says there s lots I just don t have knowledge about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just what is it an endoresment of? Russ says a lot of industry people are cheating. Is Cooke confirming this? Just what is he confirming? Nothing that I can tell.

[ QUOTE ]
As you play higher, the likelihood of being effectively cheated grows with each level you
step up. If you play VERY high regularly (I m guessing most rgpers don t) it is almost a certainty that you will eventually run into some form of cheating

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! Is he saying that the 4-8k game at Bellagio is a cheaters game. He never plays higher than 30-60. How does he know that there is cheating at the higher limits. Sklansky plays the higher limits all the time. Not once has he written about cheting in his games.


That's enough for now. I don't know if Roy Cooke really wrote this. If he did and I were posting on RGP I'd reply "Hey how about being a little more specific. Give us some reason (proof) to believe that you know what you are talking about". Show me the money!

Vince

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
I always wonderd if he was giving truthful claims of many of the big name poker players

[/ QUOTE ]

There it is, the problem! Guys like smoothcall that want to believe these accusations against big name poker players will take Cooke's endorsement of Georgiev as confirmation that these players are indeed cheats. Hey, Roy, is that what you are saying? Are the top professional players that Russ has acused of cheating indeed cheats? You've convinced Smoothcall. Me, I want to hear it form your own lips! And I also want to know how you intend to prove it. Oh, I get it. We take your word and the not so credible (your intimation in your post) Russ Gerogiev. Wow, this is getting good!

Vince

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

Here's the way I see it. Russ G essentially called everyone a cheater with usually no evidence to back it up. Cooke should know better than to write anything that appears to endorse him in any way.

Below is an article that originally appeared in Poker Digest that is now in my book Poker Essays, Volume III. It is the position that both David Sklansky and I take on this issue.

Best wishes,
Mason

Comments on Collusion


At a recent BARGE gathering here in Las Vegas, David Sklansky and I gave a one hour question and answer session. One of the questions we were asked had to do with cheating, and collusion in particular. David gave a detailed answer which I thought would interest everyone, so I am going to summarize it here.

Before I start, a little background should be given. Over the past few years there have been many posts on the Internet concerning this topic. This includes not only the user group rec.gambling.poker, but also our web page forums at www.twoplustwo.com. Needless to say, there are many different opinions on the subject, and many players, particularly those relatively new to poker, are quite anxious regarding possible cheating problems.

Specifically, the form of cheating that most poker players fear the most is collusion. This is when two or more players get together, and through a predetermined set of signals, play their hands differently from the way they normally would in an attempt to increase their profits. What follows is a short recap of David’s comments on this subject.

First you need to understand that two people colluding is not that strong. This is because one needs to help the other, and there just aren’t enough times when both players will be in a position to do that. So for collusion to work well you need a team of three or four people.

Second, you can’t do anything real obvious. Experienced players will quickly pick up on any hands that are not played normally, or in which something unusual happens. The idea of putting a player in the middle and trapping him for many raises will be quickly identified by other players at the table and cannot last for any reasonable length of time.

Therefore, unless the cheaters are very good players, they will still lose because colluding can only add a small amount to their profits. Also, they would have to trust each other for the rest of their lives to remain silent.

Another point is that they would be forced to constantly play in bad games since they can’t all change to the better game, and they would make less money scamming a bad game than they would make on their own with the freedom to move around. And finally, you as a player would normally be avoiding games with them anyway, because with so many good players at the same table you would usually be choosing a different game.

Now none of this is proof that collusion is not going on somewhere, but it does imply that if you are an unscrupulous person, you are probably making a mistake by joining a partnership. And, since it would be a mistake to join a partnership (even if you are unscrupulous), you have to assume that other good players wouldn’t make that mistake either.

Again, I want to point out that this doesn’t apply as much when there is only one game in town because now it doesn’t look as funny when the same players are always at the table. Furthermore, a mild scam can never be caught because it virtually never involves putting someone in the middle. If you are an excellent player, any extra edge will only add to your profits, but putting someone in the middle is too obvious and an excellent player would understand this and rarely try it.

Finally, I’d like to add some thoughts of my own. I have been playing poker consistently since the early eighties and I don’t believe that I have ever run into this type of collusion problem. (This includes the old player dealt games in Gardena, California). I’m not saying that it never happens, but I do believe that it is very rare, especially at the middle limits where I have spent most of my time.

I do believe that if you were playing in high limit games twenty-five years ago you probably would have run into problems. But fortunately those days are over.

Part of the reason for this is that cardroom management has learned that once their room gets a cheating reputation, whether it is deserved or not, it is only a matter of time before their business is doomed. This is one of the reasons that I have recommended to cardrooms not to spread pot limit or no limit games on a regular basis. In a game where someone can and will occasionally lose all their money on the turn of a card, it is inevitable that cheating accusations will materialize.

Another reason why cheating is not widespread as some of the claims represent, is that the players “police the game.” I’m an experienced player, and I’m usually in a game with several other experienced players. If something “funny” were to happen, one of us would quickly pick it up.

So, this essay should almost bring a halt to the fears that some of you have. However, I do advise that you remain forever vigilant. When playing poker you should always be paying attention. This is not only good for your game in that it will help you make strategy decisions better, but it is good for everyone’s game since it helps to assure that the poker games are “squeaky clean,” and well run in every aspect.