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  #1  
Old 11-24-2005, 04:14 AM
Tregan Tregan is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 29
Default Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

No background information necessary. I put the villain squarely on trip aces. Here's the hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

UTG ($534.80)
MP ($155.40)
Hero ($731.80)
Button ($1332.70)
SB ($408.50)
BB ($389.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $10</font>, Hero calls $10, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($36) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $35.

Turn: ($106) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero pushes</font>, MP calls $110.40.

River: ($323.80) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $323.80


It turns out that villain did in fact have AJo for the running overboat and took down the pot. But fear not, this is not a bad beat post!

I argued with Kyo Souma II that with his stack and my read, my turn bet is far inferior to checking behind, as I will be getting stacking him 100% of the time when the river doesn't double-pair anyway. Why bother putting my money in as an 85% favorite, when I can simply take the free river card and stack 100% of the time when the river doesn't pair the 6? (Ok, he can river a jack, but still. His stack size alone means he's getting it in no matter what.)

He believes that my play is more profitable in the long run because I am getting it in as such a huge favorite. I do not disagree here; as the stacks get bigger I want to jam more and more in on the flop and turn. However I believe in this isolated case (and in others with either short stacks, or against opponents who fall in love with trips no matter what the cost) a turn check was in order.

And I'm not just saying this because I lost the hand! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Please share your opinions!
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  #2  
Old 11-24-2005, 04:21 AM
amoeba amoeba is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 691
Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

guy is getting it in on the turn with any ace so why wait until river?

if they are in love with their hand then get the money in as favorite instead of giving a 7 outer a chance to beat you.

yes a 7 outer. just 2 less than a flush draw when you have top pair.

turn push is absolutely correct at these stack sizes.
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  #3  
Old 11-24-2005, 04:22 AM
Kyo Souma II Kyo Souma II is offline
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Location: Peddling the nuts
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Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

I was of the opinion that getting the money in that good couldn't possibly be the worst of the options at hand.

I agree less with that statement now, but how many times does the double-pairing situation occur? You can only be worried about 2 outs [AA] on the turn and 5 on the end[AA666], right?

I think you're missing out on a chance to get the money in good -in volume- in addition to maintaining an aggressive image. Does a failure to put in money while ahead cost you more than you save with the delayed action you suggest?

-kyo
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  #4  
Old 11-24-2005, 04:58 AM
Tregan Tregan is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 29
Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

Hi amoeba, thanks for the response.

I just typed up a huge reply and then closed the window by accident! [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] So here's the condensed version.

I have 0 fold equity if my read is correct; if he has trips, he is seeing a river no matter whether I bet or check. I also believe that due to his stack size he will be getting the rest of his stack in regardless of the river card.

Thus, my check behind saves me $110.40 when 4 of his 7 outs hit (A,666). If he pairs his kicker, he stacks me just like he would if I pushed the turn.

By checking behind, I will win the $323.80 pot around 94% of the time on the river, as opposed to 85%. My EV for the hand is then $304.37, as opposed to $275.23 when I push the turn.
Additionally, it allows straight and flush draws to catch up, and a weaker hand (99, 88, etc.) may try to bluff the river.

Thanks,
Tregan
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  #5  
Old 11-24-2005, 05:09 AM
Tregan Tregan is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 29
Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

Hi Kyo,

You are correct, the double-pairing situation does not occur often. But if I can put my villain on trip aces, and know that he was going to be all-in no matter what, why would I not take the line that lets me save my $110.40 on 4 of the 7 river cards that beat me?

Regarding the meta-game aspects: if the table sees me slowplaying my set in this one case, they will have a hard time putting me on one next time I flop one. I think the general mindset of players at this level is that they still think everyone slowplays their monsters, and when they brush me off as just another fish, I profit.

[ QUOTE ]
Does a failure to put in money while ahead cost you more than you save with the delayed action you suggest?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. If he has trips then he is getting the rest in regardless. And as I mentioned to amoeba, a side-effect of my turn check is it allows straight and flush draws to catch up, and may give villain the green light to bluff any river with a weaker holding.

Thanks,
Tregan
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  #6  
Old 11-24-2005, 05:21 AM
SpicyF SpicyF is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SWEDEN
Posts: 106
Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

[ QUOTE ]
No background information necessary. I put the villain squarely on trip aces. Here's the hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

UTG ($534.80)
MP ($155.40)
Hero ($731.80)
Button ($1332.70)
SB ($408.50)
BB ($389.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $10</font>, Hero calls $10, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($36) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $35.

Turn: ($106) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero pushes</font>, MP calls $110.40.

River: ($323.80) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $323.80


It turns out that villain did in fact have AJo for the running overboat and took down the pot. But fear not, this is not a bad beat post!

I argued with Kyo Souma II that with his stack and my read, my turn bet is far inferior to checking behind, as I will be getting stacking him 100% of the time when the river doesn't double-pair anyway. Why bother putting my money in as an 85% favorite, when I can simply take the free river card and stack 100% of the time when the river doesn't pair the 6? (Ok, he can river a jack, but still. His stack size alone means he's getting it in no matter what.)

He believes that my play is more profitable in the long run because I am getting it in as such a huge favorite. I do not disagree here; as the stacks get bigger I want to jam more and more in on the flop and turn. However I believe in this isolated case (and in others with either short stacks, or against opponents who fall in love with trips no matter what the cost) a turn check was in order.

And I'm not just saying this because I lost the hand! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Please share your opinions!

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont buy this. There is a fair amount of times when your read is wrong. His play is very similar to JJ-QQ-KK type of hands and you must take this into account. I would say that fact alone negates the reasoning of checking behind to get more good value.
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  #7  
Old 11-24-2005, 05:23 AM
SpicyF SpicyF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SWEDEN
Posts: 106
Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No background information necessary. I put the villain squarely on trip aces. Here's the hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

UTG ($534.80)
MP ($155.40)
Hero ($731.80)
Button ($1332.70)
SB ($408.50)
BB ($389.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $10</font>, Hero calls $10, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($36) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $35.

Turn: ($106) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero pushes</font>, MP calls $110.40.

River: ($323.80) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $323.80


It turns out that villain did in fact have AJo for the running overboat and took down the pot. But fear not, this is not a bad beat post!

I argued with Kyo Souma II that with his stack and my read, my turn bet is far inferior to checking behind, as I will be getting stacking him 100% of the time when the river doesn't double-pair anyway. Why bother putting my money in as an 85% favorite, when I can simply take the free river card and stack 100% of the time when the river doesn't pair the 6? (Ok, he can river a jack, but still. His stack size alone means he's getting it in no matter what.)

He believes that my play is more profitable in the long run because I am getting it in as such a huge favorite. I do not disagree here; as the stacks get bigger I want to jam more and more in on the flop and turn. However I believe in this isolated case (and in others with either short stacks, or against opponents who fall in love with trips no matter what the cost) a turn check was in order.

And I'm not just saying this because I lost the hand! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Please share your opinions!

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont buy this. There is a fair amount of times when your read is wrong. His play is very similar to JJ-QQ-KK type of hands and you must take this into account. I would say that fact alone negates the reasoning of checking behind to get more good value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously weaker hands can catch up when their draw is dead. I forgot to think about this factor when i read the hand at first. Hmmm
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  #8  
Old 11-24-2005, 05:25 AM
SpicyF SpicyF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SWEDEN
Posts: 106
Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No background information necessary. I put the villain squarely on trip aces. Here's the hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

UTG ($534.80)
MP ($155.40)
Hero ($731.80)
Button ($1332.70)
SB ($408.50)
BB ($389.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $10</font>, Hero calls $10, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($36) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $35.

Turn: ($106) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero pushes</font>, MP calls $110.40.

River: ($323.80) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $323.80


It turns out that villain did in fact have AJo for the running overboat and took down the pot. But fear not, this is not a bad beat post!

I argued with Kyo Souma II that with his stack and my read, my turn bet is far inferior to checking behind, as I will be getting stacking him 100% of the time when the river doesn't double-pair anyway. Why bother putting my money in as an 85% favorite, when I can simply take the free river card and stack 100% of the time when the river doesn't pair the 6? (Ok, he can river a jack, but still. His stack size alone means he's getting it in no matter what.)

He believes that my play is more profitable in the long run because I am getting it in as such a huge favorite. I do not disagree here; as the stacks get bigger I want to jam more and more in on the flop and turn. However I believe in this isolated case (and in others with either short stacks, or against opponents who fall in love with trips no matter what the cost) a turn check was in order.

And I'm not just saying this because I lost the hand! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Please share your opinions!

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont buy this. There is a fair amount of times when your read is wrong. His play is very similar to JJ-QQ-KK type of hands and you must take this into account. I would say that fact alone negates the reasoning of checking behind to get more good value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously weaker hands can catch up when their draw is dead. I forgot to think about this factor when i read the hand at first. Hmmm

[/ QUOTE ]

But I do believe your read error % might be high enough to make checking behind wrong. In regards to JJ-KK.
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  #9  
Old 11-24-2005, 05:29 AM
ajmargarine ajmargarine is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pwning Robby Gordon
Posts: 798
Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

[ QUOTE ]

I dont buy this. There is a fair amount of times when your read is wrong. His play is very similar to JJ-QQ-KK type of hands and you must take this into account. I would say that fact alone negates the reasoning of checking behind to get more good value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that might be more reason to check behind. If we check behind, villian may think his JJ-KK is good and call a river push. Just a thought. Too late to be coherent. Or to spelll.
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2005, 05:36 AM
yvesaint yvesaint is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: sittin on my 6xbuy-in stack
Posts: 690
Default Re: Flopping the underboat against a short stack.

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, that might be more reason to check behind. If we check behind, villian may think his JJ-KK is good and call a river push. Just a thought. Too late to be coherent. Or to spelll.

[/ QUOTE ]

...then the board double pairs and villain pushes JJ-KK...
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