Raise this hand on the river?

[tiltboy]

This hand is from a $3/6 game at Party. Very loose, with a couple of loose aggressives but mostly passives.
I'm on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and 6! players have called so I raise (seemed like a good idea at the time). Small blind (SB), who is very loose aggressive, 3 bets, EVERYBODY calls and I cap with 8 of us seeing the capped flop.

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] which I think is pretty good for the old tiltboy. SB bets out, 5 call and I raise and 7 of us see the turn for 2 bets.

Here is where it gets tricky. The turn is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB again bets out and everyone one, including moi, just call. SB will almost always bet if first to act and he could even have a flush too but that is not a requirement for him (e.g., he had previously bet out with only a 3rd nut low draw). I thought about raising but decided not to.

River is J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB again bets out and again EVERYBODY just calls. Pretty huge pot now, over 30 big bets and again I thought about raising but didn't because of the passivity of some of the players. I wasn't sure how I couldn't be beat at this point with so many still in but low-and-behold my nut flush held up.
Now I'm kind of kicking myself for not raising since I was last to act. As I thought about it later there was still a good chance I was leading after the river and I would be risking 1 bet to maybe win 6 more. If someone (other than SB) 3 bets I'd have a decision I guess.

Anyway I looked at the hand histories and SB did in fact have a low flush, one player had 3 jacks, one had a jack high straight, one had 3 eights and a higher flush than SB, and one had NOTHING (technically a pair of jacks).

Is my thinking I had good reasons to raise the river just after-the-fact rationalization?

[Buzz]

tiltboy -

"(seemed like a good idea at the time)"

That statement got me to laughing. Thanks for the laugh.

Great flop for you. But the turn is not great and you're stuck.

"I thought about raising but decided not to."

Even though you don't feel SB needs a full house for his lead-off bet, and even though no one else is showing strength here, raising seems reckless. SB, or any one of the others, especially the better in 2nd position, could have a full house. I write "especially the better in 2nd position" because someone might slow play a full house here from that position, hoping not to knock out any of the low draws.

"SB again bets out and again EVERYBODY just calls. Pretty huge pot now, over 30 big bets and again I thought about raising but didn't because of the passivity of some of the players."

Same deal as above. in my humble opinion, you only have a call here - and then only because of the size of the pot.

Buzz

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
"(seemed like a good idea at the time)"

[/ QUOTE ]
You know, that may be the most important thing I wrote because I often find that I do things without a well thought-out reason, but rather because they feel right at the time.

[iblucky4u2]

I can see the raise for value pre-flop, even the raise on the turn with lots of outs. To raise on the river is asking for trouble. If your flush is good, you've scooped a big pot and should be very happy that there were no full houses. You mention that "if someone other than SB makes it 3 bets" you'd have a decision - say you raise and the tightest player in early position makes it 3 bets - are you really going to fold for one more bet? You have great pot odds for a crying call here - there is no reason to risk 2 more big bets unless everyone shows their hands before you act. Don't be swayed by the results - you did fine!

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
say you raise and the tightest player in early position makes it 3 bets - are you really going to fold for one more bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. The pot would be over 40 big bets if that happened and I couldn't fold so a crying call is probably the most logical option.

[manku]

If you have FH, don't you want to raise to knock out the low draws. After all, your goal is to scoop, and giving players a free/cheap look at the river can't be good, at least in my experience.

Also, by raising on the turn, you may get a free card on the river.

Manku

[Buzz]

"If you have FH, don't you want to raise to knock out the low draws. After all, your goal is to scoop, and giving players a free/cheap look at the river can't be good, at least in my experience."

Manku - Trouble is, Tiltboy doesn't have a full house.

Instead, all Tiltboy has is an ace high heart flush but the board is paired. SB has bet, which could show a full house or not, but then five intervening players call. Are they *all* drawing for low? Could be, but could also be one of the intervening players, especially one in early position, is slow playing a full house (or even quads) to try to keep everybody in the hand.

Then on the river, the danger of a full house is even worse. Someone who had a set of eights on the turn might have caught a full house on the river.

"Also, by raising on the turn, you may get a free card on the river."

A free card can't improve Tiltboy's hand, since he made his ace high flush on the turn and has no re-draw to a better hand.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

I can't think of any situation where there is a paired board and a large field of opponents, where raising with a flush would be correct. This is a game of the nuts where the object is to scoop the pot. You have a one way hand which is pretty far from the nuts.

Your choices are fold or call and hope for a miracle.

[redmarion]

Since this is a calling station table, I think the call on the turn is the absolute best option for two reasons (1) not sure the f/h is out or will be made on the river, & (2) the safety play with additional bets to collect on the river. If the heart flush is good (?), then the raise on the turn will only fold the players who you want calling on the river for the extra bets when the low doesn't make. As it turned out in this situation, you collected 12 total additional big bets on the turn & river and only risked two bets on a (?) hand. That's pretty persuasive reason to look for all the over calls, with minimum risk.

[Geddes]

Then on the river, the danger of a full house is even worse. Someone who had a set of eights on the turn might have caught a full house on the river.

Anyone else see how clueless people are? Please don;t give advice if you don;t bother to think. The river J does not give anybody with a "set of 8s on the turn" a fullhouse. The turn PAIRED the 8, the river PAIRED the Jack. In fact, the only hand that "rivers you" is J7, which given the fact that there were so many callers is reasonable.

Furthermore, the fact you even considered raising the river proves you need to tighten up a bit if you want to win at Omaha.