Ethics/table manners question (long)

[slogger]

I play a fairly ragular NL home game with 2 of my buddies (and sometimes a few others) and they have now both complained about something that they believe I have a tendency of doing.

In fact, I think it has happened at most 4 times in the 6 months we've been playing, but I want to correct my behavior if it is something that is generally thought of as poor poker ethics or table manners (also note that I'd rather err on the side of politeness and respecting my friends' concerns than on maximizing my gains at all costs).

Background: I am a fairly tight player and when I play with one of these guys, in particular (very loose aggressive, loves to check raise and/or come over the top of small-medium bets for large percentages of his opponents' stack), I have been developing a very conservative approach to the early betting rounds. I try to let him push me around earlier on (unless I have what I am more than 80% sure that I have him), and build my aggressiveness based on hands that I actually hit as the game goes on. Because we often play for as long as 4-8 hours, this patient style has paid off more often than not.

The "offending" behavior: because of my opponent's tendency to come over the top with and w/o made hands (and sometimes even with pure rags), I generally try to take at least 5-10 seconds, but sometimes as much as 30-45 seconds to make a decision about whether to call or raise when he bets into me in this fashion. Part of this time is used to review the betting to that point and to try to put him on a hand (this is very difficult for reasons mentioned above) and part of it spent trying to read his demeanor. When I have a real hand, I'll occasionally ask him to tell me how many more chips he's got left (partly because I want to get a sense of the exact percentage of my stack at stake, and partly because I want to analyze how he responds).

The complaint: My friend says that although it may not be against any rule (written or otherwise), my behavior (taking excessively long to make a call or fold - sometimes as much as 2-3 minutes - and using part of that time to study him) is perceived (by him and others) as "poor form."

Now I agree that perhaps I should lighten up a bit when playing with my friends (as opposed to strangers in a card room) and speed up my play, but in all honesty, I don't take that long just in order to study my opponent. I hoenstly have difficult time deciding whether to put my entire stake (or a large percentage of it) on the line against this opponent when I'm not at least 75-80% confident that I'm ahead because I've been burned before (usually when I make a quick call; or even a quick fold) by not taking my time to consider all of the factors.

I'd like to hear some people's opinons of what is accepted practice in this regard. How long is "too long"? Does it matter to you whether you're playing with friends or strangers? If I only do this (take 30-120 seconds to make a call or fold) once or twice per 4-hour session, do my opponents have a legitimate gripe?

All comments. opinions and criticisms are welcome.

[muck_nutz]

It does strongly matter with whome you are playing even within each of the stranger and friends partitions of the poker world. In some places its reasonable to take a long time to make a decision. In others its not. In some places (casinos; mostly tournaments) a clock can and will be put on you if you take too long. In a home game where people are having fun and everybody is trying to become better at the game taking some extra time is probably expected. In a home game where people are chatting away, drinking it up, and wanting to play poker you should make your decision quicker.

In any case you want to consider the bad feelings you are engendering in your game and that effects how others give you action. If you are a rock who sits around trying to figure out if he should call with #2-5 for long periods of time then its likely you are hurting your chances at action (both in the current game and invitations to future games).

Additionally you should consider how your delay effects the game rate and your win rate. Not only do your delays effect how many hands you get to see, but it also encourages others to have longer deliberatiosn further effecting the rate of the game.

The only area where I think this touches on poker ethics is when it comes to delays inserted into deliberations for the intent of masking your intentions. These should be kept the minimum needed. 10-15s is usu. enough. Going into the tank for 2-3 minutes to decide to fold your 72o preflop bluff raise when somebody comes over the top is just wrong.

[redmarion]

There is a right way to consider this. Do you act the same when it is not your friend in the pot. If your friend is asking you to give him a softplay because he frequently bluffs, then your actions appear to be correct. If you consistantly use the same tactics on others, should be no problem. If the times you are in the tank for 2-3 min. is rare, no problem. 2-3 min. everytime you are in this situation may cause you invitation to expire. Does anyone else express a problem with you 'in the tank' thinking. Is your friend the only complainer. Talk to the host away from the game. Does he have complaints from others about you thinking through your decision process.

Maybe your friend is irritated because you are a better player than he is? Does he have other problems he's trying to project onto you? He wants to take your money and gets mad if you don't cooperate.