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  #1  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:09 PM
Yerma Yerma is offline
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Default Badly confused

Players are a little on the loose-passive side.

So, I have A6o in BB. 2 limpers, SB limps and I check.

Flop is AT9 rb. Checked to last to act who bets. SB folds. I "just" call. Player in between calls.

Turn is 4 rb. Checked to last to act who bets. I call. Player in between folds.

River is a 6. I bet. He raises. I call.

I was confused in a couple of places. What do you think?
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:14 PM
Vote4Pedro Vote4Pedro is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

Leading the flop is the best. These guys have no problem w/ calling down w/ K8 or T7
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:27 PM
Yerma Yerma is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

I think routinely leading at this flop with no kicker will just get you trapped too often. But I do hear that a lot of people are just betting here fairly often.

I don't think the pot is big enough that it needs protection, so if I check and it gets checked through, it's not a disaster and may encourage someone to call down very weak.

Anyhow, usually I check-raise top-pair + no kicker on that flop if the action is favorable, which it was.
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:12 PM
Fantam Fantam is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

I think that leading the flop would have been ok.

However, I agree with you that I would have preferred to perhaps do something else.

Why not raise when the player in late position bet the flop. He may only have been betting because everyone checked to him.

You could also argue the same on the turn. Why not check/raise there ?

If you check call, you are inviting other players to bet to try to take down the pot.

By taking the initiative in the hand, you are also more likely to find out earlier if you are behind. If you encounter strong betting you can fold, but otherwise you can continue to bet your hand.
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:37 PM
AlmightyJay AlmightyJay is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, usually I check-raise top-pair + no kicker on that flop if the action is favorable, which it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why didn't you raise?

The problem with check/raising here is that there's nobody to check/raise. And yes, it is bad if the flop gets checked through, because you have a vulnerable hand that might be best. This play lets you win the minimum when you have the best hand, and you lose more when you're behind because either a) someone who would have folded draws out on you, or b) you have no idea where you are on the turn. I think betting here is not only a better play, but the best play.
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  #6  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:25 PM
Felipe Felipe is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

the flop aside, i think the turn is a *must* bet. You can't afford to let it get checked around. i think people tend to freeze up and refrain from betting (and calling sometimes) on the turn, because of the price (2X the flop)

my 2cents
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:32 AM
Yerma Yerma is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, usually I check-raise top-pair + no kicker on that flop if the action is favorable, which it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why didn't you raise?

The problem with check/raising here is that there's nobody to check/raise. And yes, it is bad if the flop gets checked through, because you have a vulnerable hand that might be best. This play lets you win the minimum when you have the best hand, and you lose more when you're behind because either a) someone who would have folded draws out on you, or b) you have no idea where you are on the turn. I think betting here is not only a better play, but the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is why I'm confused. Ok, if I check-raise and he 3-bets, I can fold on the turn. But if he just calls, I still don't know where I stand. Also, if I bet and get raised by the button heads-up, I still don't really know where I stand--although it's clear that I'm in a bad spot. If you regularly bet-call, then fold the turn with top pair in shorthanded pots, I'm pretty sure you're getting run over too often.

If the flop were A92, I could just check-raise with a clearer conscience. But AT9 or AJT flops are more difficult because there's so many ways for typical limpers to have hit.
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2005, 05:33 AM
Trix Trix is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

Just bet it all the way against loose-passive players.
Having checked and having the last guy bet, IŽd raise to protect my hand.

IŽd 3bet the river as alot of the hands that beats you should raise preflop and probably often do. I think you will see A4,T9 often enough, sometimes stupid bluff that decides to call or cap.
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2005, 07:55 AM
AlmightyJay AlmightyJay is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, usually I check-raise top-pair + no kicker on that flop if the action is favorable, which it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why didn't you raise?

The problem with check/raising here is that there's nobody to check/raise. And yes, it is bad if the flop gets checked through, because you have a vulnerable hand that might be best. This play lets you win the minimum when you have the best hand, and you lose more when you're behind because either a) someone who would have folded draws out on you, or b) you have no idea where you are on the turn. I think betting here is not only a better play, but the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is why I'm confused. Ok, if I check-raise and he 3-bets, I can fold on the turn. But if he just calls, I still don't know where I stand. Also, if I bet and get raised by the button heads-up, I still don't really know where I stand--although it's clear that I'm in a bad spot. If you regularly bet-call, then fold the turn with top pair in shorthanded pots, I'm pretty sure you're getting run over too often.

If the flop were A92, I could just check-raise with a clearer conscience. But AT9 or AJT flops are more difficult because there's so many ways for typical limpers to have hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you have reads. If you check/call down with top pair, weak kicker, you're either leaving money on the table, or paying too much. If you check/raise and he flat calls (which he probably will, not many people will bet/fold at these stakes), you have to try to determine what hands he would do this with. Would he bet with any pair, or a draw? If so, go ahead and bet again on the turn. Would he only bet with top pair or better? If so, you probably should just fold to his original bet.

You handle these situations by watching your opponents very carefully and learning their tendencies. This is exactly why reads are so important.
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  #10  
Old 12-22-2005, 08:01 AM
jakbse jakbse is offline
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Default Re: Badly confused

My standard line would be to c/r the flop, bet out the turn with the intention of folding right away if raised.
I think the concept of betting rather than calling if you have a hand worth calling with applies here.
River is fine.
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