The Jays are the best team in the AL East

[sublime]

the red sox replaced a solid pitcher (wells) with another (beckett)

except wells still plays for the red sox

are about to lose a 130 rbi hitter (manny)

'lose' would mean they would not get anything in return. also, i would say the chances of manny playing somewhere else next year are SLIM. again, why does everybody assume he is not going to be in LF next year? not only has his contact become a bargain (when compared to furcal and konerko) but what teams can give the red sox what they want?

oh wait, i forgot!!! manny ASKED TO BE TRADED! it must happen! i remember the time i requested my boss's (sp?) give me head. low and behold, bammmo!

and still have doubts about their ace (schilling), bullpen, and closer (foulke).

fair enough. however, if you were given 1:1 odds would you wager that these two will outperform what they gave last year?

the yankees lost a declining setup man (gordon) for an promising setup man (farnsworth)

wow. at *best* the NYY can expect farnsworth to be 60% as effective as gordon last year.

[sublime]

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aj burnett (when healthy) + a great defense + pitchers park = matt clement+ a bad defense + a hitters park


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Tell me this is a joke.

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um, no.

edit: do you plan on proving me wrong? dont bother [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[sublime]

i believe some pitching injuries played a part in the yankees season

you mean the ones that brought these guys into the rotation?

shawn chacon, who pitched the best baseball of his career

aaron small, who pitched the best baseball of his career (by a huge margin)

wang, who was serviceable as a rookie

all those guys had enoromous success with BABIP etc.

thats not even brining onto the debate that jason giambi went from kevin millar to babe ruth.

I dont see how boston can be a favorite, look at the lineups of the teams.

ok. as of right now i would expect them to be equal at best (for NYY sake)

bostons bullpen also sucks

papelbon/arroyo
timlin
hansen
foulke
mota

wouldnt say it sucks. of course, i assume you think foulke is toast. only yankees can have bad years and come back to play at hall of fame levels.

bostons rotation is easily better than the NYY.

[sublime]

Assuming the the Red Sox trade Manny and don't get full value for Manny, which is a reasonable assumption.

a reasonable assumption is it will snow in december in the northeast. saying an originization will trade a valuable commodity at a discount to a competitor is not a reasonable asusmption.

[cdxx]

sh*t, you nailed me. for some reason i thought i read somewhere that wells wasn't coming back. can't find it now. i am wrong, this is a retraction.

sure, they'll get something in return for manny. but he pretty much said he doesn't want to play there anymore. i don't think his ass will be in LF. i may be wrong.

i think that farnsworth will be 60% as effective. i may be wrong.

[Voltron87]

you don't think nyy has a better lineup than boston? come on.

i like how when the yankees pull players who perform well out of AAA it becomes them getting really lucky. if you want to say that their BABIPs were lucky, look them up and post them, its a pretty lame argument to just say "yeah the yankees had a lot of pitching injuries but they actually got lucky, trust me".

same for the giambi... i dont see the point. he made a huge miracle comeback, how does that get held against the quality of the team?

as for bostons bullpen...

foulke- hasnt been so good for a while
papelbon- very unproven, last years whip was 1.47
timlin- hes 40, his whip has been going up every year for a while, last year it was 1.32
hansen- who?
mota- who?

[sublime]

ou don't think nyy has a better lineup than boston? come on.

no.

they were virtually equal last year, what has changed?

if you want to say that their BABIPs were lucky, look them up and post them,

ill leave it to the guys who enjoy doing that. ok, lets presume their BABIP were normal for SP's.

are you now going to argue that small and chacon didn't overperform last year? lol, you said that the yankees had injury problems with their staff and i showed you how the problems were probably good for them (ie pavano and wright would not have outperformed chacon and small). my point was (and is) that the NYY were the more fortunate team last year. any gamble they took paid off for them, while the red sox had basically nothing go right for them.


same for the giambi... i dont see the point. he made a huge miracle comeback, how does that get held against the quality of the team?

huh? i said they NYY were luckier than the sox last year and gave giambi as an example. i am confused???????

ok, lets try and look at this from my perspective!

heres the debate. which team should win more games over 162 trials, the red sox or the NYY. here is what we know:

last year they played the same amount of games and finished with the same records.

a logical place to start this debate would be looking at last years rosters and going from there.

so far the sox have added:

a top of the rotation pitcher

(i will leave out secondary aquistions)

and maybe lost their CF (which i dont think will happen. all indiactions out of the winter meeting are damon will resign)

NY: has lost a reliver who was probably one of the top 3-4 relief pitchers over the past 3 seasons and replaced him with a guy who has never been more than a mike timlin on an average year. and lost thier CF for sure.


my argument: the red sox have added a top of the rotation starter and were very unlucky last year, while the team they were tied with got lucky in some key areas. if both teams finished with he same record, and one get better while the other seems to have got slightly worse, logic would seem to dictate the team that got better should win more games going forward.

your argument: the red sox bullpen sucks and then yankees lineup is better

lets assume damon resigns and the yankes trade for juane pierre.

how can you not look at both these teams offseasons and see the red sox clearly had the better one?

[Pudge714]

Oops not as what I meant it to say it should be...
If they happen to trade him they will not get full value for him. It's pretty hard to argue that.

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aj burnett (when healthy) + a great defense + pitchers park = matt clement+ a bad defense + a hitters park


[/ QUOTE ]
Tell me this is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

um, no.

edit: do you plan on proving me wrong? dont bother [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
How about according to cbs.sportsline's player rankings Burnett was the 24th best starter and Clemnt was the 67th. These rankings are completely stats based and have no subjectivity so they are pretty good. Obviously the rankings are not perfect but that's a pretty huge difference.

[TheRover]

link pls thx

I'm guessing their criteria blows.