B&M Player I Can't Figure Out

[Stinglikeabee]

No props at the Bellagio.

[GFunk911]

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Amen... I would love to sit behind a true master of the game and watch every hand and discuss with him what he was thinking when he did that. TV does not do justice to the nuances of the game and the thoughts behind the bets.

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Me Too. I'd kill a goat to see a couple hours of the big game from somebody's perspective, or a great internet or live player. You get a peek into that throguh hand histories here, but it's not the same.

[Victor]

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As for the rest, such as 3-betting with J8s? I have serious doubts that someone who makes such plays with any frequency is a winning player. A 3-bet with this hand is 1-1.5BB wasted, depending on how well he plays postflop. That would kill the hourly win rate of even the best of players.

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i saw clarkmeister 3bet a tightraiser with j8s. the key to his play was hitting his flush on the river.

[andyfox]

Let's assume the guy is a winning player. The spectrum of all players goes from the biggest winner in the world to the biggest loser in the world. This guy is on the positive side of break even, maybe well to the positive side. So he does a lot of things well, but some not so well. A little bit of fancy-play syndrome, a little bit of too-loose play pre-flop. But good enough to be one of the better players in the 20-40 game.

[drbk2]

I'm a regular at the Borgata and I mostly play 20 40. I think I know who you're talking about... What day were you playing with him?
I'll go through your list:

1. early 30's: looks like he's early 30's but is actally 25.

2. regular in 20/40 40/80 80/160 at the Borgata - and appeared to be very respected by the locals for his play: Not a regular in 20 40, mostly plays the highest game available. Don't confuse well respected with well known...

3. Well educated: I guess...

4-9. He loves to talk. Q3s, J8s, and AA plays are stupid. He plays better in the higher limit games but in the 20 40 game he just loves to throw money around to show that he doesn't care too much about it.

[jwg152]

I was playing Saturday. Yeah, he said that he plays mostly in the 80/160. He absolutely LOVES to talk.

[TM1212]

If he simply made these plays with Q3 and J8 and said nothing to anyone I would be inclined to believe he could very well be a very good high limit holdem player. More likely with his actions he’s a fish with deep pockets, and these deep "fearless" pockets confuse the locals into respecting him (or showing him respect to keep him at the tables). I draw these conclusions, because a winning player would not have revealed why he made a certain play to anyone. Why make a -EV play to change your image (plus telling u a tell u have -EV), then tell everyone you just did it to change your image (thus not changing your image)? is that an oxymoron?

Any way, as for others reasoning for the plays:

pipster

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I would imagine many of his plays are calculated decisions... High limit players expect an UTG raise from a solid player to be AK, AA, KK, QQ and will fold almost any A/rag, etc. So maybe it was a blind steal from UTG, or some kind of draw, or some kind of image play like he said.

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A steal from UTG? A raise UTG can never be considered a steal, a show of strength maybe, a change of speed of course, BUT NEVER A STEAL. You don’t pick up Q3s utg and think... "[censored] Time to steal." And yes... It is "some king of draw", because he is behind any caller, but why that makes his play correct is beyond me.

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The J/8 could have been to try to blow someone off the hand on the flop if they missed, or just mixing it up some. The fact he was able to show it down for a full house could easily put someone on tilt.

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I hate when people try to explain bad plays by saying... "it could put someone on tilt", after the retard gets lucky and hits a card. If i outdraw someone after i played 7-2 offsuit utg, they might go on tilt, but its still a bad play. Its a bad play unless hes playing really tight and can't get a hand paid off. Otherwise 3 betting J8 IS HORRIBLE! Raiseing and Reraiseing are very different. He will get at least one caller to the flop most of the time, and with the way you have described his play so far, i find it hard to believe he has a tight image. Plus if your going to play J8 you dont want to limit the felid you want more players in the pot, so when you flop your deceptive 2 pair and fill up on the river you get it paid off.

Also raiseing with hands such as 3 4 suited in a deep stacked NL game (125bb or more) gives you implied pot odds to play such a hand. you could easily bust a player with the right flop, or deceptive draw. In Limit holdem this is not true. u need more players in the hand in limit holdem to play 3/4, and then you will have better odds.

[TM1212]

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I'm a regular at the Borgata and I mostly play 20 40. I think I know who you're talking about... What day were you playing with him?
I'll go through your list:

1. early 30's: looks like he's early 30's but is actally 25.

2. regular in 20/40 40/80 80/160 at the Borgata - and appeared to be very respected by the locals for his play: Not a regular in 20 40, mostly plays the highest game available. Don't confuse well respected with well known...

3. Well educated: I guess...

4-9. He loves to talk. Q3s, J8s, and AA plays are stupid. He plays better in the higher limit games but in the 20 40 game he just loves to throw money around to show that he doesn't care too much about it.

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4-9 sounds like many high limit players when they drop down to wait for a seat. Very likely possibility.

[TM1212]

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No props at the Bellagio.

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Thanks for posting... But I believe he said borgata, wrong coast! but there are no prop players at the borgata ethier. Most likely a high limit player throwing money around at the lower limits (for him).

[jwg152]

* He was not waiting to join a higher table.

To me, when he answered that he did not play internet poker, my read on him was that he had played and did not enjoy the action. I might be wrong about that, but why would a good-to-great player not take advatage, at least occasionally, of multi-tabling the juicy games always available around the clock? My conclusion with this cat is that his game is very dependent upon physical reads so much that he loses most of his advantage over the internet, but can beat the typical middle limit holdem game in a B&M by playing looser but exceling at reads based on physical tells. But he probably has a much tougher time playing at the higher limits, thus his current slumming, where many of the players don't give off this information, I dunno...