Pre flop play question

[lerxst337]

[ QUOTE ]
You're really wrong.

KQs and TT most likely aren't out. But the edge you have on much worse hands is still minimal so it remains a call. The last thing you want to do is bloat the pot with big unsuited cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was exagerating, folding in not right, but these aren't the situations that we strive for, right?! And you are also probably right that we are not against KQs and TT..., but I pretty much think that is best case scenario. Please show me a reasonable spread of hands that UTG and UTG+1 will limp with (we agree they are at least DECENT to be playing 10/20, right?) and 2 other reasonable LP limping hands that we have equity against.

BTW in my previous example, if you change the 33 to A6s (something we do dominate), our preflop percentage goes DOWN to 16.2%

also, i understand you are advocating call, and not to fold, but like you said, raising is OUT.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
(we agree they are at least DECENT to be playing 10/20, right?)

[/ QUOTE ]


Nope, they need to be proved decent.

[lerxst337]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(we agree they are at least DECENT to be playing 10/20, right?)

[/ QUOTE ]


Nope, they need to be proved decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, I need to go to bed, but this should END the conversation. Lets play the hand against 4 awful players.

UTG--ATo--13.4%
UTG+1--76o--18.1%
MP--Q9s--27.1%(!!!--by far the best hand here)
CO--k5o--20.0%
HERO--AJo--21.5%

Against 4 awful hands, we have 1.5% raising equity?! Simply put, AJo is virtually an equally awful hand, and if any of you would like to raise this hand and build a pot for me when I am limping in middle position with the powerhouse hand that is Q9s, be my guest.

[imaptone]

I dont see the value of the raise here. If I take my AJ off out of a deck of cards then deal out 4 random hands and run them through Cardplayers simulator AJ is 3rd, to 8-10S, Q7S, tied with 55 and way ahead of A6off. Maybe I didnt shuffle enough but when you add in 3 more hands I can't see the situation improving. How is the raise for value?

[Clarkmeister]

It's close, but I think raising is slightly preferable. AQo is an easy raise, ATo is clearly a call.

[imaptone]

Mr Meister,
This is taken from 2dimes. I just plugged in 8 random "playable" hands. I am not sure there is an equity edge in the raise. The second one would be if the blinds dropped.
2,862,949 games 38.312 secs 74,727 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 10.8405 % 10.32% 00.52% { AcJs }
Hand 2: 19.0231 % 19.02% 00.01% { 7d7h }
Hand 3: 12.7751 % 12.44% 00.34% { Ks9s }
Hand 4: 14.1492 % 14.14% 00.01% { 5c4c }
Hand 5: 06.2309 % 05.71% 00.52% { Ah6c }
Hand 6: 15.2774 % 14.94% 00.34% { Th9h }
Hand 7: 13.4208 % 13.41% 00.01% { 3d3s }
Hand 8: 08.2830 % 08.28% 00.01% { Qs2s }


4,304,971 games 32.469 secs 132,587 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 12.4791 % 11.90% 00.58% { AcJs }
Hand 2: 19.0050 % 19.00% 00.01% { 7d7h }
Hand 3: 23.2056 % 23.20% 00.01% { Ks9s }
Hand 4: 16.9000 % 16.89% 00.01% { 5c4c }
Hand 5: 06.2577 % 05.68% 00.58% { Ah6c }
Hand 6: 22.1526 % 22.14% 00.01% { QhTh }

[Clarkmeister]

Try using pokerstove instead of twodimes for something like this. Be sure and enter in a realistic range of hands, which is almost certainly far wider than you suspect. Hands like A7o, J8o, etc are very possible, especially for the last limper. The mere fact that they all limped means there are some serious retards at the table. Plus, you can put in random for the blinds. I came up with 17+% equity for AJo with the range of hands I used, not bad for 8 potential opponents. Getting the blinds to fold can only help that. Like I said, I slightly prefer raising to calling.

[oreogod]

A raise does have some value against loose opponents. But a raise on the button here also has some qualities that can help u postflop.

That being said, if u were in MP with multiple limpers Id probably limp.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
A raise does have some value against loose opponents. But a raise on the button here also has some qualities that can help u postflop.

That being said, if u were in MP with multiple limpers Id probably limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have it backwards. If the hero is already on the button, he doesn't need to raise to get position. If he's in MP, that raise (on top of value) will also usually buy us that ever so special button. And when you limp, you'll get more limpers behind you and that's not really helpful.

[lerxst337]

To me, this whole thread is really misguided. Maybe I have not played at enough tables where, despite being at a reasonably middle limit table online, everyone sucks. I assume that with the exception of up to 3 players limping here, there are legitimate holdings here--holdings that play well multiway, unlike our AJo. Hell, simple probabiltiy says that someone here MUST have a suited connector, a suited A, etc. We are stretching to find "equity" by using awful hands in our analysis, it seems many of us have completely dismissed the idea that maybe, just maybe, our opponents' flaws may be PASSIVE, and not brain dead. We are so quick to dismiss KQs, TT, A6s, etc, just to find ourselves equity. A previous poster mentioned that players must prove themselves to be good--to me it is just as reasonable to have a specific reason to think UTG and UTG+1 are limping with Q5o. Calling is likely justified with our "equity," but I really can't think of virtually any situation, shy of J's pairing the board on the flop, where I am happy to play this hand.

For example...,

The flop is J-7-2 rainbow.

It checks to the cutoff, who bets. Hero raises. One cold call, cutoff calls.

That's pretty much best case scenario right? Now, what do we do when a brick comes on the turn..., we bet out, and get check-raised? We're pretty much calling down--like the good TAG we are. This is the "equity" we have. Yippee!!!

It is so funny that folding is not even considered here. We have a high, uncoordinated holding in a multiway pot. These are not the situations we seek out. We give implied odds to any of the 6 limpers with a reasonable holding, while praying we aren't dominated. We find ourselves "equity" by divining our fellow 10/20 players to be SO bad, that they all hold worse hands than ours.

As I said before (and was quickly rebutted without any actual hand discussion what so ever), calling is probably correct, but you could certainly do worse than fold here--namely raise.