How bad was PF? Flop? Turn? River? I stink...

dealer_toe · #1 05-27-2005, 10:11 PM

hand #1 the villain is a 22/11/1.9. The table hasn't been too out of line, so I figured to try to disguise my hand, but not really.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.70 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.70 BB

This hand villain is a 27/4/3.6 Hes a lot more aggro post flop, and I figured the obvious turn c/r would send him into I'm not gonna get bluffed mode. But I got shook.

Ultimate Bet 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (9 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Emoney · #2 05-27-2005, 10:44 PM

#1 - why donk the turn if you're not going to 3-bet? did you run into TT?

#2 - i'm usually mucking this preflop and i'm jamming the flop with a flush draw out there.

Nick C · #3 05-27-2005, 10:59 PM

Getting paid off with my big hands (at Party 3/6) is something I've been struggling with lately. One conclusion I've come to during recent experiments is that even though I don't trap very much (I generally just play fast), there are enough people who do trap that the table is generally very much on the lookout for such plays.

Anyway . . .

Hand 1: I've tried this kind of stop-n-go before (with the idea that I didn't want to lead into the PFR and I didn't want to checkraise and scare everyone), hoping to confuse my opponent(s). My results have been unexceptional.

In this hand, there's a good chance I'd just lead the flop and hope MP2 hangs around and MP3 raises.

In the line you took, I'd probably 3-bet the turn, but your line may be better. (I've been running into some raise-fold lines lately.)

Unfortunately, by the time MP3 is capping the river, I'm no longer confident at all that I have the best hand. I'm now worried my opponent was iso-raising preflop with 66 or 44, and I'm worried he rivered a boat with TT.

I'm hoping he just has AQ like me, or, even better, a hand like KQ or QJ.

Hand 2: I would fold preflop.

After I called instead, I would probably checkraise the flop. I don't have a big problem with the check-call, though.

But the plan of waiting until the turn to checkraise worked -- sort of. By the time I'm getting 3-bet, I'm starting to worry a little. (A turn checkraise represents a lot of strength, and Villain doesn't seem to care.)

The river card certainly doesn't cheer me up any, and I'd probably check-call there too, not really expecting to win.

Harv72b · #4 05-27-2005, 11:18 PM

Well...you succeeded in disguising your hands; I wouldn't have had a clue that you'd flopped top trips in either hand.

I'm assuming that villain caught his two-outer on the river in Hand 1 because he doesn't seem like the type who'd cap the river with anything less. I suppose it's possible that you chopped with another AQ, but less likely that he caps the river IMO. Would he have folded TT if you'd played your hand a little faster here? Maybe, maybe not.

Either way, if you're going to lead the turn, you need to 3-bet. Personally, I would've led the flop, too, because he's never going to give you immediate credit for the Q (and you might pick up an extra bet from MP2 in the process). 3-betting preflop is less certain...sometimes I will OOP, sometimes I won't. The river is painfully obvious.

In hand 2, I'm not calling a raise out of the SB with KTo, especially not against a guy only PFR'ing 4% of his hands. But when you do flop trips, you must lead this flop--it's potentially a very dangerous one with gutshots all over the place & two diamonds. MP1 should raise your bet, protecting your hand & setting you up for a turn c/r. Note that I didn't say turn c/r on a safe card--you're c/ring the turn no matter what falls. It's iffy on whether or not to cap the turn...he could have JJ or ATs (not likely ATs based on his stats). I think I might've just called the 3-bet & bet/called the river, although the check/call is fine, too.

You really need to play your big hands more aggressively early. Any time you're in a multiway pot that was raised preflop, it's already big enough. There's no reason to slowplay.

dealer_toe · #5 05-27-2005, 11:19 PM

In hand one, what do you do to a turn cap? check call the river?

Hand 2, as I was making the pf call, I literally thought to myself, this is a bad PF call, and I'm going to end up posting this hand. I agree about the PF call being borderline to bad.

Nick C · #6 05-27-2005, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In hand one, what do you do to a turn cap? check call the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably bet-call the river. I don't know if that's best or not. (Possibly you should be willing to cap the river. I'm not sure.)

If a king fell, I'd probably just check-call.

At the tables, I've been bad at figuring out when to slow down lately. It seems like I'm guessing wrong a lot. (Or maybe I'm just exercising selective memory. I hope that's it, anyway.)

Nick C · #7 05-27-2005, 11:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's iffy on whether or not to cap the turn...he could have JJ or ATs (not likely ATs based on his stats). I think I might've just called the 3-bet & bet/called the river, although the check/call is fine, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what Harv wrote here. (For some reason, I didn't notice Villain's passive preflop and aggressive postflop stats in Hand 2 when I responded originally.)