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#1
08-09-2005, 01:52 AM
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Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
Been at the table for about 12 hands. There was one hand very similar where UTG in this hand limped, several followed behind, someone pushed, everyone folded.
420 entrants, 100 left. Party $109 Blinds: 100/200 Here (2170) is in the BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG (3521) limps 2 folds MP (6255) limps 3 folds Button (3645) limps SB (5637) limps Pot is 1000 and hero has 1970 behind. Check and see a flop or punish the limpers and push? What about making a normal raise to around 1000? 
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#2
08-09-2005, 02:00 AM
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Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
I like making it 1000. Enough though you might get one caller a push on the flop might scare em off. And while this may seemingly pot commit you, at least on a totally horendous flop you can abort.
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#3
08-09-2005, 02:04 AM
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Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
[ QUOTE ]
I like making it 1000. Enough though you might get one caller a push on the flop might scare em off. And while this may seemingly pot commit you, at least on a totally horendous flop you can abort. [/ QUOTE ] I think harrington advocates something like this. I think it's pretty terrible. Edit: I think I rather push than check here. Calling and losing will put a serious dent in anyone's stack, and your cards are probably live when you get called. Risking about 2000 to win 1000 with folding equity pretty high. I don't feel like doing the math, but this is surely +EV to push.
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#5
08-09-2005, 02:06 AM
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Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
[ QUOTE ]
I like making it 1000. Enough though you might get one caller a push on the flop might scare em off. And while this may seemingly pot commit you, at least on a totally horendous flop you can abort. [/ QUOTE ] I thought about that line as well, at least in terms of raising it up to 1000. But only to represent a big hand. Problem is that with 1000 already in the pot I'm likely to get a caller from one of the larger stacks.
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#6
08-09-2005, 02:06 AM
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Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
I think normally I check and see a flop here...
However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though... Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO.
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#7
08-09-2005, 02:20 AM
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Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
Thinking about this a little more, any horrendous flop for you would probably fit a hand you are trying to represent. Having done this move in the past I have to say I get looked up by pairs 66-1010 50% of the time.
One other thing to think about is how effective this might be if your chip stack was bigger. I often see this move in a tournament when the big stack is in ur position and finding everyone folding because he has them covered. This might be a spot where checking and hoping to hit something is your best option until you get some more chips.
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#8
08-09-2005, 01:01 PM
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Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
[ QUOTE ]
I think normally I check and see a flop here... However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though... Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed on all points. Too often you'll be called with hands that have you in rough shape. Just check and see the flop. Maybe you'll get lucky and flop 2-pair, trips, a straight or an OESD, a flush or a flush draw, or some combination of pair & draw. With a big pot building, you might then be in a situation to push or call all-in with a big hand or a big draw and win an even bigger pot.
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#9
08-09-2005, 01:38 PM
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Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think normally I check and see a flop here... However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though... Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed on all points. Too often you'll be called with hands that have you in rough shape. Just check and see the flop. Maybe you'll get lucky and flop 2-pair, trips, a straight or an OESD, a flush or a flush draw, or some combination of pair & draw. With a big pot building, you might then be in a situation to push or call all-in with a big hand or a big draw and win an even bigger pot. [/ QUOTE ] If you flopped an OESD or flush draw and got it all in against top pair, you'd be in the same shape if not worse than if you got it all in against 2 overcards right now. Are my EV calculations correct that you would need to take it down 1 out of 6 or 7 times to make this a +EV situation? If someone showed you 2 overcards and said they would call, you could almost justify a push here just because of all the money in the pot. I think you take it down at least 40-50% of the time here, which makes this way +EV. The fact that with 2000 chips you can't really steal blinds but with 3000 chips you can easily do it makes this situation even more +EV because of future gains from taking this pot down. If you are going to put your skill to good use you need the chips to do it, this is a great opportunity to get them.
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#10
08-09-2005, 02:52 PM
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Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think normally I check and see a flop here... However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though... Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed on all points. Too often you'll be called with hands that have you in rough shape. Just check and see the flop. Maybe you'll get lucky and flop 2-pair, trips, a straight or an OESD, a flush or a flush draw, or some combination of pair & draw. With a big pot building, you might then be in a situation to push or call all-in with a big hand or a big draw and win an even bigger pot. [/ QUOTE ] If you flopped an OESD or flush draw and got it all in against top pair, you'd be in the same shape if not worse than if you got it all in against 2 overcards right now. Are my EV calculations correct that you would need to take it down 1 out of 6 or 7 times to make this a +EV situation? If someone showed you 2 overcards and said they would call, you could almost justify a push here just because of all the money in the pot. I think you take it down at least 40-50% of the time here, which makes this way +EV. The fact that with 2000 chips you can't really steal blinds but with 3000 chips you can easily do it makes this situation even more +EV because of future gains from taking this pot down. If you are going to put your skill to good use you need the chips to do it, this is a great opportunity to get them. [/ QUOTE ] Notice I said "you might then be in a situation" - For example let's say you just check and the flop comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - giving you middle pair with a flush draw and some runner-runner straight possibilities. Let's say that the first limper has AA and wanted to Limp Re-Raise but never had the opportunity - so now he pushes. Another limper has AQ and figures that his hand may be good - so he calls all-in. It gets back around to you - with your 14 outs getting well over 2:1 on your call - now that's what I'm talking about!!!
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