JJ line - monster pot

cdxx · #1 08-08-2005, 11:09 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

with no caps, i feel pretty confident AA-QQ are absent from this huge field.

Flop: (19 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls.

now A4s is a concern, but i feel i better 3-bet here than try to raise the turn.

Turn: (16 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

feeling very good about my hand right now.

River: (19 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB folds.

ooooo... last spade. but pot this huge, feel like i have to call. fearing AKs or AQs got me.

Final Pot: 21 BB

butters · #2 08-08-2005, 11:16 AM

looks good.

W. Deranged · #3 08-08-2005, 11:17 AM

1. Pre-flop is standard.

2. Flop three-bet is absolutely necessary, particularly if it will force out some of the one-bet types. Waiting until the turn makes some sense here, but you can confront a few with 2 cold here and I don't really want to miss that opportunity. (I do encourage someone to pen a reply about why waiting until the turn is right here... I think it's damn close.)

3. Given flop turn is standard.

4. On the river I don't like a fold here. My one comment is that you should be prepared, against tight-weak players in SB's position, to be raising this river a reasonable amount of the time if you think there is any legitimate chance you have MP2 beat but not SB. This is a classic promotion raise set-up, and it can be extremely profitable to identify it here.

I don't think it applies on this river because I don't think SB has a straight/two pair, or else we would have heard about it, and a flush isn't folding.

jskills · #4 08-08-2005, 11:20 AM

Nice hand.

Padawan Learner · #5 08-08-2005, 11:31 AM

Deranged:

[ QUOTE ]
2. Flop three-bet is absolutely necessary, particularly if it will force out some of the one-bet types. Waiting until the turn makes some sense here, but you can confront a few with 2 cold here and I don't really want to miss that opportunity. (I do encourage someone to pen a reply about why waiting until the turn is right here... I think it's damn close.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is close too. The problem with the flop 3 bet is that it really does little to protect....they would still be getting 28:2 or better. However, I do think a 3-bet might make the hand play out a bit more straightforward on the flop and turn; where as a flop flat call could lead to a bet an a raise in front of you on the turn--with or without a scare card hitting.

While facing the field with 2 BB would be best, there is also a very real chance that MP won't bet the turn...especially if he is raising on the flop with a flush draw, or somethinkg like 88-TT and an overcard hits on the turn.

Hmmm....the more I think about it, the more I think a flop 3-bet is probably the way to go; but I think I would have waited till the turn in the heat of battle.

W. Deranged · #6 08-08-2005, 11:34 AM

One thing to note is that here comes a point where the pot is so damn big anyway that protection basically becomes impossible and we are playing sheerly for value.

arch12 · #7 08-08-2005, 11:36 AM

I feel waiting to the turn to raise is a better option here, given the highly coordinated board. It's highly likely you have to dodge all the overs, any [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], any 4 and possibly even a 10 or 9 (MP2 may hold 1010 or 99). Meaning your opponents collectively have > 20 outs to beat you. Therefore, your equity edge on the flop is minute, possibly inexistent (I may be going a litte overboard [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). Should a safe card fall on the turn, your equity edge will improve vastly, and thus I feel this is where you should exploit that edge. I feel this is great opportunity to forgo your small edge on the flop, in an attempt to push a potentially greater edge on the turn. It’s also important to note, this line is appropriate as there is no valid way to protect your hand given the bettor’s position (I don’t feel loose opponents will have any problem calling 2 more SB should you 3-bet the flop)

EDIT: I'd also like to add that this line will most likely result in a very similar sized final pot, possibly even a greater sized pot, and you will not be missing out on any vaule by waiting until the turn.

meep_42 · #8 08-08-2005, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One thing to note is that here comes a point where the pot is so damn big anyway that protection basically becomes impossible and we are playing sheerly for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true -- the pot would be about 15BBs on the turn and you may or may not get led into again. (It looks like MP2 was on a flush draw, but could have had TT) You'd be offering anyone behind you 9:1.

-d

cdxx · #9 08-08-2005, 12:38 PM

9:1 does not warrant a call from TT on the turn.

meep_42 · #10 08-08-2005, 12:40 PM

There's also the problem with not getting led into again. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
[edit - and anything less than 22:1 and TT is making a mistake]

-d