A semi-interesting hand

[Hamlet]

Note-- I played this hand very late and tired, so I won't include specific cards.

I'm in the 4-8 Stud game at Canterbury, sitting on Andy B's left. I'm the bring-in with JJ\4.

A very passive player immediately to my left completes the bet while showing a rag up bets. I pretty much know that he has a big pair down, probably Aces or Kings (unless he's rolled up. I don't know whether he would slowplay trips or not). Another player or two calls, and I call the extra two dollars.

On fourth, everyone blanks off. The passive player bets, one other player calls, and I call, knowing I am beat but hoping to spike.

On fifth, the 3rd player makes a small open pair and bets. I can't remember whether it was his door card (I don't think it was), and I think I had a matching card to the pair (making my hand fairly dead). I may be wrong on this, though.

I fold, and flash Andy my Jacks. He looks at me like I've grown an arm out of my head.

So, bad fold or good fold?

Some alternate 3rd street options. come in for $5 or raise the rasier's bet. you might get reraised, but you'll have it heads up with the dead money. you'll also gain additional info as to the other's hand.

As to the perons's pairing, makes a big difference it was was door card or not. If it were door card, lead toward folding, but otherwise lean towards calling. Not raising on 3rd has made this 5th street decision more difficult and fuzzy. Take the lead when you can. In general, be the Simon not the says.

[Hamlet]

I don't like re-raising the likely big pair here. Some reasons:

1. It may not get it heads up. One or two people already called the completion. Even a 3-bet by the original bettor is unlikely to get them both out.

2. The pot is currently only about $18 (assuming there were 2-coldcallers). Assuming everyone but the raiser folds, I will be getting about 3-1 on my money ($10 to win $30). However, the rake/jackpot/tip will take $6. Even if everything works out as planned, it is still only mildly profitable. I don't want to build a giant pot with the second best hand in this structure. Maybe in 15-30, when the rake is smaller.

Your point about the door card is important. I think that it is pretty much always a fold if the open pair includes the door card. For discussions sake let's assume it wasn't the door card.

Assuming the paired player has two small pair, and the raiser has naked pocket Aces, should you continue?

I think it really depends on how live everyones hand is. From some twodimes simulations, if my hand is completely live, I can approach 30% equity, which dictates a call. If my hand is fairly dead, I can get down into the low 20s. If I assume 25%, I'm putting in $24 (assuming I make at least Jacks up) to win $32+$24+24-6=$72

Actually, that is almost enough to call, even with a moderately dead hand. Assuming I can save a bet occassionally when behind and make a bet when ahead, I should be able to come out slightly ahead here.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

For me, this would be very dependant on reads. If your almost sure that the other player has a bigger pair than yours, then don't reraise. You might get it heads up (maybe no), but you have the worse hand. Of course for this to be correct, you have to know your oponents tendancies.

On fifth I would give up as well...

[Roland]

Why not fold on 3rd, if you’re so sure he has a higher pair?

[Hamlet]

On 3rd, it's $2 to call in an $18 pot. I have a buried pair that will win a big pot if I hit trips. If I spike two pair I'm in a decent position.

4th may be viable time to fold. It didn't occur to me though, since I am so rarely in a situation where I am so certain to be beat with so little action. Usually, by the time I know I'm beat with Jacks, I've raised and been re-raised. If the pot is head's up, I'm pot commited (assuming reasonable boards). If the pot is multi-way, I'm pot committed [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Some of this is my holdem experience tainting my thought proccess. If I'm beat with Jacks in holdem, it is almost always a fold after the flop. I forget that its hard to be that far behind in stud.

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Why not fold on 3rd, if you’re so sure he has a higher pair?

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Are you sure he wont' also raise with 3 suited, 3 straight, pair of 7's, 8's 9's or 10's? Why must it be A's or K's? Is that the only cards that player will raise with?

[Augustus3000]

he probably got that inkling because the guy was a passive player and probably doesnt make raisees without huge hands

[Andy B]

Good seat selection. Guy in the 7 seat would have talked your damned ear off about absolutely nothing.

Too bad the bar was closed.

I think I looked at you funny mostly because I've known you for five years or so and have never known you to lay down a hand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I give people crap when they show me the T4o that they're throwing away in hold'em too.

I'm pretty sure that it the third man did not pair his door card. I think that if calling is wrong, it isn't wrong by much. You should be drawing fairly live most of the time.

What is it with you and J4 anyway?

[Hamlet]

My memory is that it wasn't the door card, but that the pair matched one of my upcards, so my hand was kinda dead.

In retrospect, you're right, the call is probably slightly +EV. It just seemed wrong to chase two hands that had me beat already.

The river play would have been interesting. Assuming I make Jacks up, and the two-pair hand checks, I pretty much have to value bet into them. The raiser would likely call with the naked Aces, and the two-pair would overcall. Fold to a raise, since neither one is getting frisky on the river with less than trips.

What becomes dicey is if the "two-pair" bets. It seems very unlikely that he would bet without making a hand that beats two decent pair, and I have to worry about the Aces having improved behind me. I'd call, but I'm thinking that it's close to a fold.

You'd agree that the raiser would never be raising with a rag up without a hand that had me beat?

Hey, I've laid down two or three hands in 5 years. Remember my KQs in the BB? I'd have happily called with J4s, but against a hand range of AA-JJ,AK,AQ, laying down KQs getting 3.5 to one seemed right [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I've won some mighty big pots with J4s [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Good seat selection. Guy in the 7 seat would have talked your damned ear off about absolutely nothing.

Too bad the bar was closed.

I think I looked at you funny mostly because I've known you for five years or so and have never known you to lay down a hand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I give people crap when they show me the T4o that they're throwing away in hold'em too.

I'm pretty sure that it the third man did not pair his door card. I think that if calling is wrong, it isn't wrong by much. You should be drawing fairly live most of the time.

What is it with you and J4 anyway?

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