overcall all 3 streets or would that compensate my manhood?

TStoneMBD · #1 10-17-2005, 01:33 AM

villain is 24/13/1.6 2500 hands. my notes on him are "isolates UTG lag from EP with A9o". the calling station is an unknown.

after i was bet into on the flop my plan was to just call down all 3 streets.

after the 3rd king hits on the turn, i was thinking about just going for the overcall instead of raising. id hate it if i raised and the bettor folded 99-TT drawing dead. i also dont think i mind the button calling with Ax.

lets say i just call the turn and the river blanks, could a case be made for going for the overcall or is a raise painfully obvious?

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises

Lmn55d · #2 10-17-2005, 01:54 AM

interesting hand. On the flop button would be making a correct call with Ax only if utg+1 doesn't have an A or K and he doesn't necessarily have to be holding an A, so you don't really care too much about protection. If button is the type to overcall here with like QJ or whatever might as well keep him in. By the time the turn comes you don't really care about protecting anymore and are just concerned with extracting max value. That 3rd king made it 50% less likely that MP3 has a king which is significant. I like calling the turn and raising the river I think unless you think UTG+1 will chicken out and check an 88 sort of hand on the river (an overcard could come or whatever) or if you think button wouldn't overcall the turn again with Ax or a weak hand. If button is the type who is not folding any lower pocket pair might as well raise the turn for value.

EDIT: Actually if button doesn't ever fold a pair for 2 bets might as well raise the river to keep his Ax in on the turn. He might even call 2 on the river with AX if he's absolutely horrible.

TStoneMBD · #3 10-17-2005, 02:09 AM

button is an entire unknown to me. i know nothing about him. only been at the table a short while and havent seen him do anything, which doesnt necessarily mean hes tight im just not paying attention.

Lmn55d · #4 10-17-2005, 02:15 AM

actually if button has a pair he has 2 outs and if he has an A let's say he has 2 outs discounted. 2 outer is what like 22.5:1. If you call he's getting 15.5:1 so he'd have to make up 7 sb or 3.5 BB. This would be pretty easy no if he turns a boat? So maybe he would be making a correct call a lot. If you can raise the turn though he'd be making a pretty incorrect call with a 2 outer so that's not necessarily an argument for raising the flop, but just something to think about.

TStoneMBD · #5 10-17-2005, 02:18 AM

1: i dont see how you are discounting aces. if anything you should assume that there are less aces at the table improving his odds to hit. i think assuming he has precisely 4 outs with Ax is best.

2: a pair does not have 2 outs against me. if a player has TT and spiked a T on the river he would have KKKTT not TTTKK.

Lmn55d · #6 10-17-2005, 02:21 AM

no i'm saying if he spikes it on the turn (before the 3rd king comes). THen he has TTTKK while you have 2 pair. I discounted aces because UTG+1 could possibly have AK or some other random ace hand.

DeeJ · #7 10-17-2005, 04:57 AM

This is exactly how I'd play it. If I'm 3-bet by anyone I'm calling down. shirley wawb applies.

mc1023 · #8 10-17-2005, 05:08 AM

if you were trying to induce bets by just smooth calling the flop, I say call the turn too because there are really are 2 cards you don't want to see on the river and that's another K or an A.

anything pair is drawing dead, let the button along for the ride too and give UTG+1 another shot at the pot on the river.

I think your going to be shown a K from UTG+1 a lot more often than you might think though, I like raising the flop and playing this one strong, I don't want to let something like Ax peel the turn for cheap and I want to know where I stand in this hand as quickly as possible.

also with your raise here, if he doesn't have the K your gaining 1-2 bets depending on what he has, while if he does have the K you are losing 3 bets.

newhizzle · #9 10-17-2005, 08:21 AM

on tstone's website, i said i like raising the flop because i dont think UTG+1's donk looks like a king, and i wanted to eliminate button, but looking back on it, i dont think we mind a call from button, there are no draws and the only thing we dont want him hitting is an ace, and if UTG does have a king, we certainly dont want to isolate him, on the turn i like a rasie for value and hope a smaller pair will come along too, i think both lines are ok in this spot

Schizo · #10 11-11-2005, 12:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no i'm saying if he spikes it on the turn (before the 3rd king comes). THen he has TTTKK while you have 2 pair. I discounted aces because UTG+1 could possibly have AK or some other random ace [ QUOTE ]
no i'm saying if he spikes it on the turn (before the 3rd king comes). THen he has TTTKK while you have 2 pair. I discounted aces because UTG+1 could possibly have AK or some other random ace hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh... I would think UTG is far far more likely to have a pocket pair than AK or any ace hand for that matter simply because of the flop donk. I would still give button 3 outs. With 3 outs its correct for button to call. I honestly think raising the flop is good. If he has Axs I'm not sure I want him to get proper odds to call the flop just so he can possibly pick up a flush draw on the turn. The pot is big, protect it. Also, if you raise the turn they are far more likely to put you on a K since everyone raises the turn w/ trips. If the turn wasn't a 3rd K you are going to fold out a lot of pocket pairs when you want them to stay.