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#1
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ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
I normally instamuck ATo in all but super late position, and even then I'm only playing if I'm the one opening the pot or otherwise face very favorable conditions. That said, this seemed like a possible exception.
My thinking was: I have a definite equity edge against essentially four random hands, and while I'm out of position against the two guys I fear most in the hand, I will often know very well where I stand on the flop if I raise it up pre-flop and am not re-raised by either of the LP posters. With 4.4SB in the pot and action folded to me, I just saw too many loose dollars available not to go after them with my above average starter. Here are the relevant reads: I've played against MP3 before and noted that he's somewhat tricky, not to mention aggressive in position. He comes in at 22/7/2 over a somewhat small sample. CO is TAGish from the hands I've seen personally, at 17.5/10.5/2, and the data mining guys at PokerEdge confirm that status over a larger sample. SB is average/passive, at 28/2/1, and BB is a maniacal retard, at 36/20/1.9. I've seen him chase badly once or twice, and he's prone to pay off hands he's crushed by all the way. So, what's the verdict pre-flop? And once hero has made the play, what's the best way to manage the unexpectedly large field with TPDK? Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $5. CO posts a blind of $7. <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 (poster) calls, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls. Flop: (10.40 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls. Raising seemed attractive here, but not as attractive as raising a non-club turn. Clubs are going to have the odds to continue even if I do raise the flop, and I'm pretty damned sure it'll be bet to me on the turn (recall my read on BB), so I decide to wait... Turn: (8.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, BB calls. River: (12.20 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls. Final Pot: 14.20 BB |
#2
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
Nice hand. I agree with your thinking on every street. The only nit I can pick is that clubs will obviously have the odds to continue when you raise the turn, too, but it just makes more sense to charge them on the more expensive street (and avoid putting in extra bets should a club turn come).
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#3
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
If they've got clubs, they aint going away no matter what. Raise the flop.
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#4
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
I'm open-raising ATo in MP everytime.
I also raise ATo in MP against 1-2 EP limpers...I'm pretty sure it is, but I can be swayed. |
#5
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
[ QUOTE ]
I'm open-raising ATo in MP everytime. I also raise ATo in MP against 1-2 EP limpers...I'm pretty sure it is, but I can be swayed. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, I'm listening -- what games are you playing? The open-raise sounds much more attractive than the raise after limpers. The trouble for me is the threat of domination with ATo, and the fact that many low-stakes jackasses don't 3-bet with hands like AJs, AQo, AKo, etc. -- meaning I might hit and still not know where I stand, paying off while behind the whole way. Now, these "jackasses" are profitable to play against, don't get me wrong, but there are certain plays that I think are ok to leave out against them, and raising ATo in MP seems to be one that isn't a big sacrifice. |
#6
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
Raise the flop. Why didn't you? You want a hand like KJ, KQ, or QJ out!
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#7
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Why didn't you? You want a hand like KJ, KQ, or QJ out! [/ QUOTE ] Yes, but are you at all concerned about what a flop raise will do to my ability to protect my hand on the turn? And have you considered the fact that one club gutshot broadway draws probably have the odds to call two cold on this flop? A hand like KcJs has 5.5 effective outs, and would be getting 13:2 or 6.5:1 to call. Though this is about one SB short of the raw odds they need to call, the implied odds surely put them in the clear. It isn't much better for me if someone has the Qc with another broadway card, since they can add the backdoor flush outs to the trips and two pair outs. Raising the flop sucks for these reasons, IMO. There are as many hands I tie to the pot that I want out as there are that I force out that can call when I just call. Waiting to raise until the turn does risk a cheaper turn card beating me, but it also helps me blow ALL of these hands out when a safe card falls. |
#8
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but are you at all concerned about what a flop raise will do to my ability to protect my hand on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] I think you're misunderstanding what "protecting" your hand means. It's not to get people to fold, it's to give people incorrect odds to draw. A raise on the flop does that. Raising the turn would be to get more value out of your hand. Personally, I don't think you hand is strong enough. The raise preflop is pretty standard for me. |
#9
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Yes, but are you at all concerned about what a flop raise will do to my ability to protect my hand on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] I think you're misunderstanding what "protecting" your hand means. It's not to get people to fold, it's to give people incorrect odds to draw. A raise on the flop does that. Raising the turn would be to get more value out of your hand. Personally, I don't think you hand is strong enough. The raise preflop is pretty standard for me. [/ QUOTE ] No, no I am not misunderstanding anything here. I am 100% unable to offer incorrect odds on the flop via a raise. I've outlined that fact. If I raise the flop one card crub frush and gutshot straight combo draws will have the odds to call that bet AND a turn bet. If I just call the flop, I can offer these hands incorrect odds to call (and thus PROTECT my hand) with a turn raise. Look at the pot and make your case, because I don't think you have a leg to stand on. |
#10
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Re: ATo in MP with lots of blind money in - raise it up???
Mister King:
[ QUOTE ] I am 100% unable to offer incorrect odds on the flop via a raise. I've outlined that fact. [/ QUOTE ] You showed where a K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Jx would technically be correct in calling, but what about hands like Qx, or gutshots with no club? In addition, while they K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Jx is technically getting very close odds, they will not be closing the action with the maniacal retarded BB still being able to raise again. YOu are obvioulsy correct that facing the field with 2BB vs 2sb in this largish pot is going to "protect" your hand better (at the cost of letting them draw on the flop cheaply. And the one thing you do have going for you in this hand is that the BB is maniacal, so it is likely that he will lead into you again on the turn if he is met with no resistance on the flop. If the BB was unknown, then not taking the flop opportunity to pop it would be a pretty big mistake, imo, as there is no guarantee he will lead the turn again. I don't think your play is necessarily bad, and I think your position is blostered by the high likelihood of being bet into again on the turn. However, I do think that you underestimate the ability for a flop raise to actually "protect" your hand here. |
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