when they push back on the turn

detruncate · #1 02-12-2005, 04:48 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Villain is largely unknown. He's shown both pre- and post-flop aggression in the hands I've seen him play, betting into a few scary boards... but I don't know whether he had the goods.

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero ???

These sorts of situations come up a lot -- even semi-aggressive players seem to like to take a shot on the turn. The board isn't scary, but raising risks a 3-bet if Villain has a strong hand, and he might give up if he's bluffing. On the other hand, if he has a good but not great hand I'm going to get an extra BB and possibly discourage people from taking liberties on the turn.

Is it better to just call down from here? Do we lose more from action or inaction?

crunchy1 · #2 02-12-2005, 04:59 PM

If you raise and he caps then what do you do?
If you raise and he calls do you bet the river? <<-- what if he raises your river bet?

I think you gain more here with a call/check/call strategy. You win his extra bet when he's bluffing and lose less when he's got a made hand.

detruncate · #3 02-12-2005, 05:32 PM

I have been calling down in these situations almost all the time lately, but I find myself falling into the "I don't want to push him off if he's bluffing, or pay too much when he's not" groove a lot and started to wonder if I was missing bets.

Thanks for the input.

GoblinMason (Craig) · #4 02-12-2005, 06:05 PM

I would 3bet and call down if capped. There's a good chance he's taking a random shot that you're on AK or maybe he has a Q.

detruncate · #5 02-12-2005, 06:45 PM

What do I get capped with that I'm happy calling down against? He might carry a bluff that far, but I doubt it. With the 3-bet I'm telling him I like my hand a lot and am not going anywhere. I have to think I'm screwed if he caps. Seems like the best case scenario is that I'm drawing to 2-pair and set outs. And then I'll call on the river UI like a good little muppet (can't fold for 1 bet... surely I'm good 1/x, right?) and watch him scoop a couple extra chips -- who needs to eat, anyway?

If I'm capped, I think I need to be looking to fold UI. If I can't stand to not show down, I should be content with getting 2 bets on the turn and 1 more on the river, no?

Snoogins47 · #6 02-12-2005, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Villain is largely unknown. He's shown both pre- and post-flop aggression in the hands I've seen him play, betting into a few scary boards... but I don't know whether he had the goods.

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero ???

These sorts of situations come up a lot -- even semi-aggressive players seem to like to take a shot on the turn. The board isn't scary, but raising risks a 3-bet if Villain has a strong hand, and he might give up if he's bluffing. On the other hand, if he has a good but not great hand I'm going to get an extra BB and possibly discourage people from taking liberties on the turn.

Is it better to just call down from here? Do we lose more from action or inaction?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I threebet, lead the turn if he doesn't cap, call a river raise, and painfully call down if capped on the turn.

I think another important thing to remember here is that people like to wait until the turn to show aggression with almost any made hand against a preflop raiser, it's the "he always has overcards" syndrome I think. I think you're seeing AQ/KQ very, very often here, and you have a handful of outs against a random two pair hand.

Maybe I underestimate people, but until I'm shown otherwise, I wouldn't expect it's very likely for an unknown to run a delayed bluff here, so I don't think that calling down so as to maybe get another bet out of a bluffer is as important as getting the value that I personally believe is probably there.

Now, the problem with my analysis is that I'm basing this on an "unknown" in a game I haven't played for months. This is my line against an "unknown" in my games, but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near correct here.

adamstewart · #7 02-12-2005, 08:21 PM

I simply call the turn raise, and check-call the river.

This turn raise scares me. I've raised preflop, bet the flop, and bet the turn. Usually CO raising on the turn says "I've got your AA, KK, or AQ beat."

I put CO on 77 or 44 most of the time. But for those times he's betting something like Q,X...I'm still going to showdown.

Sure, sure, there will be times CO is bluffing, but those times aren't the majority - and even if he is bluffing, 3-betting will surely make him fold, so there's no value to doing so.

Adam

Nick Royale · #8 02-12-2005, 08:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I simply call the turn raise, and check-call the river.

This turn raise scares me. I've raised preflop, bet the flop, and bet the turn. Usually CO raising on the turn says "I've got your AA, KK, or AQ beat."

I put CO on 77 or 44 most of the time. But for those times he's betting something like Q,X...I'm still going to showdown.

Sure, sure, there will be times CO is bluffing, but those times aren't the majority - and even if he is bluffing, 3-betting will surely make him fold, so there's no value to doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree.

ThePimpulator · #9 02-12-2005, 09:32 PM

I dont think this is the case as much as you make it out to be. There are an awful lot of morons out there that are raising the turn with any pair, a straight or flush draw, or nothing at all. Many people just assume you're on AK. That said I still like to just call down. With a non-scary board I will find it difficult to fold even to a turn cap because I could only be down to two pair. So if I am behind, 3betting is spewing. And if its a bluff the 3bet stops them giving you another bet on the river.

The only time I 3bet the turn is with a read. If the villan has been taking the piss out of the table for a little while I like to 3bet even if it is at the expense of his river bluff. Just so he knows its OK to do it to others but he has to be prepared to get into a battle in my pots.

adamstewart · #10 02-12-2005, 10:07 PM

You say that it's "not as common as I make it out to be."?

Compare the first part of your post with the second:

1.
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think this is the case as much as you make it out to be. There are an awful lot of morons out there that are raising the turn with any pair, a straight or flush draw, or nothing at all. Many people just assume you're on AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

2.
[ QUOTE ]
That said I still like to just call down. With a non-scary board I will find it difficult to fold even to a turn cap because I could only be down to two pair. So if I am behind, 3betting is spewing. And if its a bluff the 3bet stops them giving you another bet on the river.

The only time I 3bet the turn is with a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should make up your mind.

Adam