do we have free will?

[PokerAmateur4]

Well saying anything can be anything because God is all powerful is not tantamount to any discussion at all.

That's like responding to a scientific question about the nature of the world with "Cuz god can make it like that". Worthless.

2. so g-d means some kind of superpowerful force or being, where as god sometimes lends itself to the association of a christian deity?

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
Well saying anything can be anything because God is all powerful is not tantamount to any discussion at all.

That's like responding to a scientific question about the nature of the world with "Cuz god can make it like that". Worthless.

2. so g-d means some kind of superpowerful force or being, where as god sometimes lends itself to the association of a christian deity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's pretty stupid, isn't it. Don't blame me, I didn't come up with a G-d.

Free will is NOT a scientific issue. It's a philosophical one because it's so far beyond what science can adequately address (for now).

I don't understand your second point. When someone says "G-d," I think the Christian guy. Booming voice, long beard, fatherly presence, etc....

[hmkpoker]

That depends; is he causing it? Is he the one making us make the action?

If no, then it seems free to me.

[PokerAmateur4]

G-d=god? Why spell it like that, with the dash, what's that signify?

I think you'd agree that a boulder has no free will in it's actions. I.e. if it's rolling down a hill, you wouldn't say it had a choice, would you? Not likely, because it's action has a cause, one outside of its control. If you can't control something, you are not making a choice.

Therefore if you are a product of, cut the god part out, let's say, your parents, and you are only breathing air because it is in your genetic makeup to do so, and you only decide to do all actions based upon knowledge and expierence aquired from past causes outside your action, then how can you say you have any choice in anything? If your mind is simply a calculator, programmed from past occurences, and given input from your surrondings, than how can the outcome be a free choice.

Are you just playing God's advocate?

I like the Supreme Chemist (I think it's called) argument against (the Christian) God existing and humans having free will. It goes something like this:

P1) God is omniscient
P2) God is omnipotent
P3) God created the universe, all of its laws, humans, their DNA, and every subatomic particle jiggle that ever was or ever will exist in this universe.
P4) God knew the outcome of of his creations before creating them (from P1)
P5) God could have changed any single particle jiggle in such a way as to change any outcome he could possibly want to create (from P2 & P3).
C1) God created everything exactly as he did, knowing beforehand the exact outcome, with the power to have created it differently if he so desired.
C2) God is ultimately responsible for everything in the universe, including our very actions (that he foreknew and could have created differently if he wanted to).

We only have freewill in that we can't predict our own actions. But, God can. We are his creation. Don't blame the chemistry experiment that explodes when you knew it was going to explode before you combined the chemicals.

(A presupposition in my argument is that we do not have souls that exist outside of God's foreknowledge. If we do, then P1 is incorrect -- God is not omniscent. If he does foreknow the composition of our souls, and he created them, then those souls would still be able to be changed in accordance with God's omniscient omnipotent desires prior to creating them.)

[ QUOTE ]
G-d=god? Why spell it like that, with the dash, what's that signify?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering the same thing. I've only seen that done by Jewish people out of respect for God, or something.

[hypermegachi]

interesting post.

i'd also like to add that eventually as we trace back in history it will go to a time where nothing exists, and that something must have sparked the existance of everything. call it evolution. call Him God. whatever your choice.

while your argument is pretty extreme, i'd say even if we did have free will, i.e. we had a choice given a set of variables, it would all be irrevelant because we are predetermined to take a specific action, given what we have learned in previous experiences.

i was discussing with a friend about the choice that we take. the specific response to a set of variables will almost always be the "best" personal perceived choice. therefore, if we always choose to make the best choice if possible (flipping a coin is neutral), that makes it deterministic, eliminating free will.

[hypermegachi]

suddenly Presbyterians/Calvinists don't sound out of line anymore...

[hmkpoker]

I have no problem with concluding that there is no free will based on your premises, however they specifically establish God as omnipotent whereas the OP's don't.

[PokerAmateur4]

I'm arguing that logically, save for some unknown or quantum mechanics reasoning, god doesn't matter for the conclusion of determinism as even your birht on is out of your control.