Confused in Scugog

[Gamblor]

[ QUOTE ]
never raise from the button with ATo or KJo or even KQo for that matter. don't raise from the CO with it either. don't be such a hothead. call fool, call. and don't try to scare people out with your raise with one of these hands either. your hand plays better when you call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean you never raise from late position with these hands as the first to voluntarily enter the pot?

This may go against everything I've ever read or learned about Texas Hold 'em.

[elysium]

hi gamblor

why raise? what is it that you want to accomplish? do you want to win the blinds? yes? are you sure? oh, you're not sure that you want to win the blinds. you have excellent position with what has a reasonable chance of being the best hand. you feel that your hand and position is worth more than just 1 1/2 bet. well, if you raise, you will win the blinds. some people would like that.

so what do you want to do? raise and build a big pot you say? only a hand of equal strength will be in there building a big pot with you. you will also encourage your opponents to play more perfectly due to pot size. is your hand strong enough for that? some people think that ATo is strong enough to build a big pot with.

the question isn't whether you should or should not raise first in with ATo or KQo from LP, the question is 'what is your action trying to accomplish?'. once you answer that question with some measure of definity, if you break down the gameplan requiring a raise reach the goal that you set out to achieve, you will find it wrought with nuisancesome quirks and pesky nuances that keep cropping up seemingly out of nowhere. the perspicacious player, however, will quickly realize his error which he discovers as he looks back at his pre-flop raise, and says rather blandly, 'should have called.'. and you know something gamblor, he's right.

before making a hold em decision, ask 'what am i trying to accomplish?'. it may go against the grain a bit gamblor, but if you know what you're trying to do, you will embark upon a more correct course of action as you set out to do it. never ask, 'am i sure that this is what i want to do?', after it's too late. by that time the answer will be self evident.

[Jdanz]

i like the thinking, but i think it's wrong here as 1 or 2 of the three blinds in this hand folding greatly increases A) chances of winning and B) dead money in the pot.

It's an interesting concept, but i think what you lose vs qj is much less then what you gain vs, either a calling or folding 96o.

[elindauer]

You read your opponents on the flop as both holding either big hands or draws, with draws being most likely. Then the turn is a blank and they both check. At this point, your read of DRAW should be confirmed, and you should bet. I don't see how you can possibly check the turn given your thought process. Bet the turn. If you are check-raised, call, fold the river only if it's a very bad card for the draws you think you are up against. Most blank rivers you're making a crying call, but the pot is too big to fold for 1 bet against a player that is somewhat on tilt.

On the river, your value bet is very thin. After all, it looks like they both had draws and missed. You will win often when you bet and they both fold, but how often will you win when you actually get called? About the only hand they can hold that you beat and they will call with is a suited Qh and Axh. Yeah, they might have those hands, but AJ is also in the picture.

Hmmm... I was going to say that I think checking is better, but in light of the number of weak suited hands that can be out which you beat and may call, combined with the huge weakness shown when they both check the turn and river, combined with the fact that nobody decided to bluff at the river with a missed draw (making them a bit less likely and weak made hand a bit more likely), I like your river bet.

Good luck.
Eric

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
On the river, your value bet is very thin. After all, it looks like they both had draws and missed. You will win often when you bet and they both fold, but how often will you win when you actually get called? About the only hand they can hold that you beat and they will call with is a suited Qh and Axh. Yeah, they might have those hands, but AJ is also in the picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack kicker doesn't play once the board pairs. So the river bet chops against Ax.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Jack kicker doesn't play once the board pairs. So the river bet chops against Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good catch, thanks. I don't know where I stand now on the bet... I think I'm against it, as you lose all the potential value from weaker aces that I was counting. Just check behind and hope some chips get pushed your way.

-eric

[mike l.]

that check on the turn is incredibly weak and i was thinking that even before i saw the river action. there's no reason to think youre not usually ahead there.

[koa]

I can see the argument for both sides. I would probably go for the cheap showdown just cause if your behind you give yourself a free card and if your ahead your probably not ahead by much and will get called or raised. The flop was capped so its not like you haven't made them pay for their draw if thats all they have, but I don't mind the check on the turn but that might just be me.

[koa]

The check also induces a bluff if they miss on the river cause it looks like your on a draw too. And if they hit their draw they weren't going to fold on the turn so you save a bet or two.

[shemp]

Well, I haven't read the other posts yet, and I'm confused as all hell too, but once they check to me on the turn, I bet.