A9s, top pair on suited flop

MP1 is a LAG based on like 40 hands, MP2 unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.5 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises...

I really don't like this kind of situation, and didn't know what to do really. Is perhaps just calling and then betting a non-spade turn a better line?

[Dagger78]

I like check raising these hands too. I'd bet/fold the turn when he flat calls the CR. Bet any non-spade river also.

What was your plan if he 3-bet the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
What was your plan if he 3-bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't remember if I had a plan in case he 3-bet, but probably I would have called and then folded on the turn unimproved.

[W. Deranged]

What does check-raising accomplish here?

About the only thing you can hope to do here is fold a medium spade, but in a multiway pot decent spades are not folding anyway and you are likely up against at least one good spade anyway. You are not vulnerable to overcards, and it is unlikely opponents without spades have more than 3 outs against you.

A problem with check-raising is you'll sometimes get three-bet by hands that you're beating (usually the nut draw), and it's tough to put yourself in a spot where you might fold the best hand. Many worse hands that will call one bet on this flop will be doing so incorrectly.

My preferred line usually involves simply betting out on this flop. I'll often then lead back on the turn even if raised. Since you checked, I think check-calling the flop and then donk-betting the turn is probably preferable to check-raising the flop for the reasons described. I've become a little more hesitant about donk-betting, though, because astute opponents will often raise a donk-bet light. Given the nature of the flop, though, I doubt many opponents will get too out of line here. Against an aggro. opponent who will probably bet the turn with a draw anyway, check-calling the turn and then donking the river may actually be best.

The key idea here is that your hand is totally unprotectable. Your hand will change greatly with the nature of the turn card, and so it's often better to wait to get aggressive...

[hobbsmann]

Raise preflop. I also like leading the flop for reasons that W spelled out in his post.

Thank you Deranged for your good reply, I understand. The information I will get by check-raising can and will probably be misleading, and make me fold the best hand either on the flop or the turn, so I don't gain much by check-raising; I cannot protect my hand anyway. Also, by betting out instead I don't risk the flop getting checked through.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.5 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.5 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]<font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

River: (7.5 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]<font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks...

...planning to call a bet, but MP2 checked right behind. After the way I played the flop, is the rest okay?

[silkyslim]

first of all, MP@ raised pf, so u could already be dominated. then, factor in all the spades that will cripple your hand. YOu cant get a decent flush draw to fold, but may get weak ones to that would beat you. I think the problem is your kicker. the pot is big though. Im not sure what to do. any comments on my comments?

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop. I also like leading the flop for reasons that W spelled out in his post.

[/ QUOTE ]


we're UTG PF, I'm not raising there


I'm also leading the flop, and if raised, pulling a stop n go on the turn if no spade falls

[Ritter]

I'm dubious about playing A9s UTG at all...

Ed Miller in SSH writes (with regard to A9s - A2s):

"If the game is passive, you can play any of these hands from any position in an unraised pot. In a somewhat aggressive game, play only A9s and A8s from up front, but fold even these if the pots are frequently going to three bets or more."

In HPFAP, Sklansky rates Axs as a group 5 hand and writes:

"Specifically, in early position in a typical hold 'em game, if you are the first one in, or if there is only a call to your right, be prepared to play only those hands in the first four groups. In a loose game, as long as the players are not too aggressive, you can add the Group 5 hands, especially the suited connectors."

Now, I'm not saying it's a CLEAR fold, but Sklansky and Miller seem to be telling us that playing this hand is very dependent on the conditions of the game.

The way I see it, it's the type of hand that can be very difficult to play out of position against an agressive raiser as you indeed went on to find out in this hand.

While it may very well be true that playing this hand up front in this particular game may be nominally profitable, for me personally, it's one of those marginal hands that I'd just as soon stay away from and I think the flop you got shows why.

With all that said, having gotten to this flop, I think part of how you make this hand profitable in the long run is being able to either check/fold or bet/fold the flop.

Miller again from SSH:

"Notwithstanding their high card strength, the smaller suited aces are fundamentally speculative hands, deriving much of their value from their flush-making ability."

You ain't got no spade and the odds that you're up against AK, AQ, AJ, AT in my book, are just too good to continue.