Military Records Contradict Kerry Critic

[Cyrus]

WASHINGTON — Military records appear to contradict claims by Larry Thurlow, a vocal critic of Sen. John Kerry, that the Democratic presidential candidate lied about coming under gunfire during a mission in Vietnam, according to The Washington Post.

The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star for the same engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire," the newspaper reported Thursday.

Thurlow, a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, and a registered Republican, [had] said he is angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities after his return to the United States, especially his claim that U.S. troops committed war crimes with the knowledge of their officers up the chain of command.

...Another lying fanatic hits the wall of truth.





Fox News Report

[MaxPower]

There is no reference to the article on the link you provided or on the Fox News site. They must have removed it in order to remain fair and balanced.


Here is the Washington Post Article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug18.html

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"The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star for the same engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire," the newspaper reported Thursday."

Thurlow is correct. He realized that the Viet Cong wouldn't shoot at a fellow communist like Kerry.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Time for the cockroaches to start scurrying back under their rocks.

[benfranklin]

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Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire," the newspaper reported Thursday.

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Unfortunately, the small arms fire was coming from Kerry [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[vulturesrow]

Thurlow is not the only one involved that night who said there was no enemy fire. As for Thrulow's citation, here is what I took straight out of the newspaper article.
"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which isn't the case,' Thurlow said Wednesday night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. 'My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubts on anbody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."
"Thurlow said he would consider his award 'fraudulent' if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. 'I am here to state that we weren't under fire,' he said."

[adios]

Cyrus you really need to stop using that trashy news site [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

I don't think this will put the issue to rest but maybe it will.

If you look at the document regarding Thurlow's medal in the same encounter that Kerry got his, it clearly states that those guys were under enemy fire. In the article Thurlow claims that he thought he got the medal for coming to the rescue of the boat that got mined:

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

To me Thurlow's stance seems kind of weak in that he would probably have known what was written in the report recommending him for the medal but I really don't know for sure.


Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.



Larry Thurlow in an anti-John Kerry ad. Thurlow said he would consider his own Bronze Star "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. (AP)

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered Republican, of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one of us as we were trying to put our lives together."

Larry Thurlow in an anti-John Kerry ad. Thurlow said he would consider his own Bronze Star "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. (AP)

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.

The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken boat. "I know. I was there."

The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's bestseller list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and lying repeatedly about his role.

Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann, the Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says he has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing votes to Kerry at a crucial time.

The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in Vietnam. But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.

Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than $450,000 over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry, who backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for president.

Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.

[Stu Pidasso]

From the article

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire."

Nothing new here Cyrus. Eyewitness accounts still back up Thurlow. I'm sure Algers could explain it to you that eyewitness accounts are usually deemed the more credible.

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...Another lying fanatic hits the wall of truth.

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Don't be so hard on yourself. You're just being a good partizan.

Stu

[cardcounter0]

So a bunch of boats are on the water. One of the boats gets in trouble. This guy's boat turns around goes back up stream and assists the boat in trouble. For this he thinks he got a Bronze Star? Wooooo! Does he think you get Bronze Stars for holding people's hands when they cross the street too?

Doesn't it make more sense that a Bronze Star would be awarded to someone turning around and going back upstream 'rescuing' the other boat, ALL WHILE UNDER HEAVY ENEMY FIRE? That is more of a Bronze Star act, isn't it?

And do they just throw you the medal? Isn't it accompanied by a certificate or citation telling you specifically what it is for? Wouldn't he have seen the reports and recomendations with the words 'enemy fire' in them?

Memory sounds mighty selective for this guy, can we believe his other recollections of Kerry?

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
So a bunch of boats are on the water. One of the boats gets in trouble. This guy's boat turns around goes back up stream and assists the boat in trouble. For this he thinks he got a Bronze Star? Wooooo! Does he think you get Bronze Stars for holding people's hands when they cross the street too?

Doesn't it make more sense that a Bronze Star would be awarded to someone turning around and going back upstream 'rescuing' the other boat, ALL WHILE UNDER HEAVY ENEMY FIRE? That is more of a Bronze Star act, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the general criteria for winning a Bronze Star?

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And do they just throw you the medal? Isn't it accompanied by a certificate or citation telling you specifically what it is for?

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So ????


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Wouldn't he have seen the reports and recomendations with the words 'enemy fire' in them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I asked the same question more or less. Perhaps your knowledgeable about how the military proceeds in these manners but I doubt it.

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Memory sounds mighty selective for this guy, can we believe his other recollections of Kerry?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not the only one making the allegations to be fair. Not that you would bother to concern yourself with fairness.

[ChromePony]

Ive gotta say that I find it humorous that everyone (deomocrats republicans the media...) is making such a big deal over whether or not Kerry fully deserves some of the medals he recieved. I haven't been following too closely but I saw a doctor on the news the other day claim the the piece of metal he removed from Kerry's arm was only about 2cm in length and therefore he is not worthy of the honor.

It seems that lots of people are missing key points here:

A. Kerry fought in Vietnam which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Bush and millions of other Americans his age at that time. Medals or no medals, all soldiers risk their lives to fight for the 'interests' of the country, if he didn't actually deserve them, fine, just dont let that take away from the acknowledgment he does deserve.
B. Fighting in a war, while very valliant and brave and patriotic, in my mind does has very little to do with ones ability to actually be president and run the United States.

I've always felt that more empahsis should be given to the issues, and I hate how every election both sides engage in this character bashing which just avoids the issue of who is going to make better decisions for our country. I'm not saying character is unimportant, but more that I just hate how sensationalism in the media in essence chooses our priorities for us.

OK, that is all.