Why did Jesus have to die?

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
The only think that "makes up" for their sin is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, pardoning sin without payment may be merciful, but it is not moral and just. God is perfectly merciful while at the same time being perfectly moral and just which is why sin cannot go unpunished.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you not see the contradiction here? Sins must be punished because thats the moral and just thing to do. Oh wait just kidding we crucified some innocent guy so sins dont have to be punished anymore...

How could a man's sacrafice possibly shake the foundations of morality.

Also you seem to be putting limitations on God's power in that he cannot do anything unjust or sinful. Well if he is going around changing morality so child rapists can get into heaven thats pretty unjust if you ask me.

I contend that if an action was a sin before jesus's sacrafice that same action must be a sin after, and they morally require the same punishment.

[MaxPowerPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you not see the contradiction here? Sins must be punished because thats the moral and just thing to do. Oh wait just kidding we crucified some innocent guy so sins dont have to be punished anymore...

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that. Sins do have to be punished. All sin without exception. You will pay for your own sins apart from faith in Christ. To all who believe, their sins were nailed to the cross with Jesus and paid for in full.

[ QUOTE ]
How could a man's sacrafice possibly shake the foundations of morality.

[/ QUOTE ]

This man is the son of God--fully man and fully God which qualifies him to stand in our place and live the perfect life as a man and to forgive our sins based on faith in him.

[ QUOTE ]
Also you seem to be putting limitations on God's power in that he cannot do anything unjust or sinful.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what he reveales about himself. It is not a restriction that *I* am putting on him.

[ QUOTE ]
Well if he is going around changing morality so child rapists can get into heaven thats pretty unjust if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, he is not "changing" morality he is upholding it. He counts faith in Christ as righteousness. And all who have a saving faith will live righteous (although imperfect) lives. Being a child rapist is not a mark of someone who has been born of God through faith in the gospel.

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say that. Sins do have to be punished. All sin without exception. You will pay for your own sins apart from faith in Christ. To all who believe, their sins were nailed to the cross with Jesus and paid for in full.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, however I don't see how my sins could be paid for by somebody else. It seems like the opposite of what is just and moral. If I murder a kid would it be just for somebody else to be punished in my place out of love for me? I think not, even if that somebody is God.

On top of this why does faith in Christ make it so one gets all of his sins paid for by Christ, but those without faith MUST pay themselves? How can a simple belief or non-belief allow us to defer our just punishment to somebody who was punished over 2000 years ago.

To me this just sounds like people trying to scare other people to follow their religion through threat of punishment, and the allure of not being morally responisble for the bad things we do as long as we have faith.

Take the example of two men, both live lives full of terrible sin the only difference is one near the end of his life has faith in what the bible says about jesus, the other does not. The first gets the best possible reward the second gets the worst possible punishment. Why should an apparently morally irrelevant faith swing ones treatment the maximum possible amount.

Do you think it is just for people that speed on the highway to be be burned at the stake? Obviously punishment and reward should be at least a bit proportial to the seriousness of the actions. This business of faith making all the difference completely contradicts this. Faith in jesus is not the best thing somebody can do and non-faith is far from the worst. Also it is questionable whether many can even choose to have faith.

A very good question indeed, good sir Bork.
One that I have been wrestling withpersonally, I was struck with the overwhelming sense that this message I believed in was based around a seeming injustice. Why don't I have to pay for the wrong I do? I asked..
I think justice works itself out though, through the laws that are in place by God. Repentance is what God wants, life change, transformation. He want's us to get beyond the point where we suff up. Knowing that I am forgiven by God because of Jesus doesn't make me feel pure and clean after I commit a sin. I'd say that understanding the price that was paid makes me more aware of the seriousness of sin and guilty when I commit a sin. I think that this guilt is part of paying for sin. I know many people who sin all day long and don't feel bad, but I KNOW when I sin. A conviction that is from the holy spirit, and neccessary in promoting repentance(life change).
I also believe that justice will be sorted out in heaven, mainly because the bible says so and I trust it. I think we will be confronted with our sins in heaven, but not seperated from God. Not everyone is the same rank(for want of a better word) in heaven. Jesus speaks of "causing one of these little one's to sin, " he says "it is better for that man to throw himself into the ocean with a millstone round his neck than face God". Not quoted straight from the bible, just memory... My point is he doesn't go easy on anyone's sin, and the sin you spoke of he gave special mention. He is repulsed by it as you are.