10/20 PL...define his hand on the turn?

[AZK]

Greektown 10/20 PL. I've been playing for several hours and have about 2800...I've only shown down nut hands in big pots, and shown down less stellar holdings in small pots. A bunch of people leave so it's now 5 handed. Game has become extremely aggressive, we haven't seen a non-raised flop in about 2 orbits, I've been giving up my blinds with ease, but have trapped numerous overly aggressive players with TP type hands by just getting to showdown as cheap as possible, most people give up after the flop. No limping basically. Villian (young kid kenny for the regulars) has respect for me as I've busted him a few times in the past, I have respect for him as he is a very good player, but I can outplay him postflop at times.

Anyway, 5 handed, 1 limp, Villian (has me covered) raises to 80, folded to me in the SB, I call with AQo (black), everyone gets out of the way.

He is not tricky, so this raise is AA - 88, AKs - ATs, AKo - AJo, KQs-KJs, KQo etc...around there. He will auto-bet any flop when checked to if he raised preflop. He sometimes fires on the turn. At the slightest bit of aggression he backs off unless he has the goods. The last few pots we've been in when I've check-raised or raised his bets he's folded. I'm waiting for him to make a play at me since I've been doing it too frequently. I took this line, but I probably should have done something different on the turn? What do you think?

Flop ($~180ish) Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, he bets $150, I call.

Turn ($480) 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he bets $300, I call.

River ($1180) brick

I bet $500...

The bets seem strong, but at the time I really thought he was getting stubborn/frustrated from the way things were going and I think he would play JJ/TT this way too. I really want a showdown but I don't want to have to call >$500 on the river, which he will make. So my lead was part value, part blocking...Should I have done something on the turn since it's a great card for my hand? Keep in mind at that point if I check-raise it's a very large part of my stack at the same time, villain is not likely to give me credit for a reasonable holding as I've been raising/check-raising him a lot...

[youngin20]

Looks like a value bet. I think your hand is good...but...seems like better ways to get value. But it also could look like a value bet, to make him THINK you were on a flush draw and bluffing...depends how smart he is...hopefully he is too smart and thinks its a bluff disguised as a value bet.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

The bets seem strong

[/ QUOTE ]

??? you make it sound like he'll autobet pot on the flop and maybe on the turn, I don't think there is any reason at all to think you're beat here. this line seems standard to me, if you're going to call preflop there is just no other way to play it.

if this game plays anything like my PL game used to, you can expect to be facing a pot bet on every street here. that doesn't mean you are going to get away from your hand.

--turnipmonster

[AZK]

Right, so for the river, I didn't feel like calling a $800 or more bet with TPTK....that's why I threw my bet out there...I just feel like I should have played the turn differently. If he has AA - QQ, I'll never know until he reraises the river, which I was planning to fold by the way...so I feel like I never know what he has, but he probably has some vague idea of what I have....

[turnipmonster]

how are you going to play the turn different? make a blocking bet on the turn? I must say I am not a real big fan of making a lot of blocking bets against people that play good postflop. the turn action seemed to be perfect, with his underbet.

--turnipmonster

[Wayfare]

I think you played it just fine, although you knew it would be a tough hand to play no matter what due to your holding and your position.

Do you fire a lot of flops when missing? I am surprised he kept firing at the turn, considering the action, but if he was frustrated and is getting frisky with jacks I can understand better. FWIW I would have folded preflop, but would have called with position.

Also, I like the leading bet on the river. The problems only really start when he will bluff raise you on the end, but that is only if he knows your bet on the end is a blocker.

[AZK]

Turnip: For a brief second I thought about leading the turn, I'm trying to get to showdown as cheap as possible, so I was thinking of betting 200 on the turn, but if he comes over the top I probably have to fold, and he'll probably bet the river if I check to him. Basically I'm just wondering if there is any other way to play this hand and any cheaper way to get to showdown...as for your mention of his underbet, sure it's small but not THAT small....would you play this any different if he bet 400 on the turn?

Wayfare: Calling preflop I knew it would be difficult to play, but it's 5 handed and I was playing my blinds too tight, I don't play deep stack short handed NL well (yet).... So I was playing pretty conservatively when I didn't have the button. That meant folding a ton of hands that I probably could have played... I almost always auto-bet any flop when I've been checked to, unless I know someone is a habitual check-raiser and/or calling station and I've missed. Most pots were being taken down when the flop was bet. I could see him firing on the turn with something like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or like I said before JJ and just annoyed at me.

As for the bluff-reraise, I thought about how if he reraised on the river I would have to fold, but it takes a special kind of player to bluff-reraise. He isn't it. You'd have to get over the this money doesn't matter hump coupled with the is the other guy could enough to lay down TP...I don't think this guy is willing to reraise an extra 1500 on the river with Ace high or TT.

[Wayfare]

Bluff raising this river would sure take something special, no question. Your action would be pretty much identical if you had QQ save a raise on the flop...

[AZK]

Given the fact that I've raised a lot of his bets and "taken" pots away from him, I would probably keep with the appearance of like I'm bullying by leading the turn small into him with top set. I did it a few weeks ago with a flopped set to his overpair and he came over the top hard to my small turn bet, I put him all in etc...so seems like that would be how I would play it.

In the end, he thought and thought and thought and folded. It looked like AK to me. Which really got me thinking, how do I play this when an Ace flops? Just lose several hundred, or is there merit for dumping on the turn? He would have called the $500 river bet if the flop was ace high and he had AK.