Stealing the blinds in NLHE

[DavidC]

In NLHE cash games, blind stealing is something that I'm really uncomfortable with (which would occur more often in a short handed game).

In NLHE a standard PFR is 4xBB (in a 1/2 blinds game, though, make it $10 just so you don't freak out the fish with $8 bets).

However, in LHE, you raise PF if you think that your hand is good maybe 50% of the time, depending on how much he'll reraise you and with what kinds of hands.

The problem with NLHE, is that:

1) If you make a standard pfr (4xbb) then he can afford to be much more patient when he makes his calls / raises.

2) If you make a minpfr (i.e. the same as a limit raise), then he can call with nearly anything in the BB when the stacks are deep, because he's got position and he's trying to hit a hand to double through you or at least do some serious damage.

So it becomes really tough...

Especially if you're trying to steal from the CO or something like that with KJ, and you know that people will flat call with a hand like AQ/AJ/77, whereas in limit they might reraise those hands to try to punish you for stealing.

The other thing is that if you start making your "stealing pfr" a minraise, then when you get AA on the button you have to minraise rather than standard raise!

Anyways, I've been rolling this around in my head for a while now and I don't have too much academic knowledge, so it'd be neat to hear some opinions on blind stealing.

This is a topic (along with hand selection) that was completely ignored in ciaffone's book.

Maybe it's in S/S and I just haven't read it in there yet.

Comments are appreciated.

[AZK]

Blind stealing in NL is sort of pointless unless you have a really short stack, 50xBB or less I'd say. If you are playing in a deep game with 150xBB+ why bother to steal 1.5xBB? Most raises from late position are more to build pots than flat out steal, the goal being to play bigger pots everytime you have a positional advantage. Natedogg talks about this in the archives, that post is well worth the read. Bottom line is basically that in NL you are trying to keep a healthy stack and don't mind slowly adding to it with mediocre hands, i.e. TPTK/2 pair etc, but ultimately you are looking for a hand to double through with, so there isn't really a point in risking a medium sized portion of your stack over one bet...make any sense?

This is assuming you are playing in a full ring game and everyone is pretty deep, it is obviously completely different in a shorthanded game or short stacked game.

[THWAP!]

I think that stealing blinds in NL cash games (especially deep stacked ones) is less about just stealing the blind. It's as much about the meta-game implications. So, even in deeper games, it's not pointless. Basically, you need to achieve the right frequency of blind steals so that when you do openraise from LP, people can't automatically peg you on a hand. Additionally, if you play well postflop, people need to know that if they mess with you, it will be potentially costly on later streets. If you get through this phase of achieving control, then play becomes easier.

So, if you get a hand that's worth stealing with, and you have an opponent that you have reasonably good control with, you do it.

As far as something more specific, I'd say this. Whatever you usually raise, raise that amount. If you like to mix up your raise amounts (a la Harrington), and you feel that your raise amounts aren't transparent, then feel free to alter the amount based on the local needs of your current situation. I just think that you need to add balance, especially in more aggressive games. Of course, playing well postflop is an obvious advantage that will assist you in your steals, but it helps that you have position. Hopefully, I made some sense here.

[Voltron87]

For the majority of cases, the risk/reward of blind stealing makes it not worth it.

[DavidC]

What it comes down to, when changing raising amounts, is that I believe that my standard open pfr should change with my position. 4xbb all the way to mp3, then 2xbb all the way to the SB. No matter what my cards are.

Once people enter into the pot, then my standard PFR is 4xbb, unless there's a lot of people, then it could be more, dependent on the size of the pot by the time it gets to me and what cards I hold.

So I wouldn't be changing my best sizes. I would just have two bet sizes that I used all the time, dependent on my position, not on my cards.

The the risk/reward ratio...

This is why you would adjust your pfr downwards when in late position.

Basically all the responses I've received thus far have been "you don't want to steal in NLHE with deep stacks."

My own opinion is that every dollar matters in poker.

You'd figure if it were so risky to steal, then it would be just as risky to defend.

--Dave.

[jayheaps]

stealind blinds in deep stack games is only important in that it will allow your big hands to get paid off because your opponents assume you are raising light.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically all the responses I've received thus far have been "you don't want to steal in NLHE with deep stacks."

My own opinion is that every dollar matters in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason, I really don't like this method of thinking, I agree, sure, every dollar does matter. But you are just setting yourself up for trouble if you are always stealing -- you need to have a playable hand.

From what I've observed, most solid players playing in a deep game, when they choose to openraise from late position or raise a few limpers are not raising to take down the blinds and steal a few antes, they are trying to build pots when they have a positional advantage. Everything being equal, if they are playing for a $100 pot when they have the button and a $5 pot when they are UTG they will win all the money in the end.

It doesn't sound like you've ever played in a really deep game. For example, greektown 2-5 NL, the game I primarily play, is populated by stacks in the $1000 - 5000 range. The blinds are $2, $5, a standard raise is $40 - 60. Why would one risk $60 or potentially more if one gets caught, to win $7. It makes no sense. One would have to successfully steal over 80% of the time (something absurd) for this to be profitable...am I making any sense?

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
stealind blinds in deep stack games is only important in that it will allow your big hands to get paid off because your opponents assume you are raising light.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I was saying though in induvidual cases it is not worth it to risk 25$ to steal 7$ worth of blinds for example.

[imperious]

It sounds like you're mixing tourney thinking with cash game thinking.

Blind stealing doesn't really happen at higher stakes and if it does to a small extent then ppl are doing it on roughly the same frequency anyway so this isn't where you make your money. LP raises are much more likely to be a semi-bluff blind steal than pure so if/when they get called at least they have some chance of flopping a decent hand.

If you watch rather than play 25/50NL then I suppose it looks like "wow if i had the roll, all I'd have to do is steal a couple of blinds an hour and I'll make money" but it obviously doesnt work like that.

I also think you'd be better off discussing this tactic, I don't know many other ppl that do this and this really isn't optimal play IMHO.

[ QUOTE ]
What it comes down to, when changing raising amounts, is that I believe that my standard open pfr should change with my position. 4xbb all the way to mp3, then 2xbb all the way to the SB. No matter what my cards are.



[/ QUOTE ]

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically all the responses I've received thus far have been "you don't want to steal in NLHE with deep stacks."

My own opinion is that every dollar matters in poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

But, as others have alluded, blind stealing is not profitable. You'll be subjected to re-steals, end up having to play trash hands post-flop, and other bad stuff that's just not worth the benefit of the blinds.

As far as you altering your pre-flop raise amounts in order to accomodate (and mask) your blind steal attempts, that's just silly. You have the cart leading the horse there.

Yes, every dollar matters. But every dollar is relative. So while the $15 in blinds might be "important", the decision you make for the $1500 pot is 100 times more important. Concentrate on those.