... so I took my ball and went home - 88

[Benman]

Really? LAGish doesn't necessarily mean stupid. Sounds like small blind likes to raise. If he can't bring himself to raise with a weak jack in this situation, then his only option to continue playing is to call down two more big bets against what he figures is an Ace. I think he might fold a jack here.

[noir]

Indeed underestimating one's opponents is a fatal flaw; however factors such as big bets to reach showdown and position are trumped by the possibility of winning combined with the fear of losing should his hand be best or become best. This is his psychological weakness.

Ours can be projecting our own understandings of the game and particular situations onto others unnecessarily for the purposes of retaining hope and/or executing what we believe to be the optimal play. We take solace in the fact that we played the hand well - because that is what we tell ourselves even though we did not.

With regard to the hand, I'd fire. Their range of hands and the fact that they have in no way defined them as pairs higher than eights justify it. Previous action and feel could swing it to a prudent check though.

[PokerBob]

i like it.

[tansoku]

Making plays that feel weak/tight always leave a bad taste in your mouth (well, mine anyway). No better hand is folding, that is for sure. Getting chk-raised on the turn sucks pretty badly too. Flush draw aint folding so one of your 8's is likely dirty. But you already know all of this...
If it goes SB bet, MP fold on a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river you calling?
Gotta think the turn check behind induces a bluff from one of these guys some portion of the time..

[StellarWind]

Not only are my eights good, I only need one of them.

The river was a black nine and it checked through. SB showed 52o for a wheel gutshot. MP showed 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a different wheel draw turned OESFD. MHIG.

I always feel sheepish when this happens. OTOH if I can win this way when I'm best maybe that confirms that I don't need to bet or call.

I notice I forgot to include my suits in OP. For the record 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is in hand but the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] isn't.

Thanks for your comments.

[colgin]

Haven't read other responses.

I generally agree and definitely agree with the turn check. With two overcards (one of which is an Ace) and three draws out, I don't think you have enough equity here to warrant betting the turn. Plus you will get check-raised often here and have to fold (occassionally folding the currently best hand) and foregoing the opportunity to hit one of your two outs.

The one caveat is gthat after you check, if a total blank falls (e.g., 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]), SB leads and MP folds, I might call to pick off a potential bluff from SB. Even there it is close as his bet would have been into two players thus reducing the chance that he is bluffing.

Hi Stellar-

I like the way you played this. The problem with the turn is it opens up another flush draw, and players like this can occasionally do things like c/r when they pick up a strong draw on the turn. I don't want to put in more than one bet here on the turn or river, and 8s aren't strong enough to worry too much about giving free cards. There's also the chance that one of these players, despite their wretched stats, is on a WA/WB line and will donk the river even if they just call your turn bet.

I check through the turn and call a river bet from the SB unless the card is something frightening like a broadway that completes a 3-flush.

[Dopey]

Read the responses and the more I think about it the more I like this line. I tend to bet this with the intention of taking a free showdown UI but I realize I am doing it too much an folding too many turns to a c/r.

Just curious about your potential river play here:

1) In the actual hand it is checked to you on the river, is this worth a bet? Or is there no value because nothing you beat is going to call?

2) It was said if SB bet a non-scary river and MP folded several would call. What if SB checked and MP bet, are you folding because SB is still to act _so your not closing the action) and MP is not as LAG as SB according to your read.

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
1) In the actual hand it is checked to you on the river, is this worth a bet? Or is there no value because nothing you beat is going to call?

2) It was said if SB bet a non-scary river and MP folded several would call. What if SB checked and MP bet, are you folding because SB is still to act _so your not closing the action) and MP is not as LAG as SB according to your read.


[/ QUOTE ]
1. Getting a nine makes things much worse and totally rules out a river bet IMO. It's exactly the sort of card that beats you but doesn't trigger a bet by the opponents. It can actually have the opposite effect of persuading a potential bluffer to just check and see if his 9x is good.

Anyway I didn't intend to bet in any case.

2. Certainly SB betting a blank and MP folding is the best case and I always reconsider situations like this before actually folding. Your judgment is often clearer after you see the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and MP has folded. Generic judgments made on the turn often overlook extenuating details that come up later. Still I'm looking for a parlay here:

A. SB must be willing to bluff two people despite signs that I'm turtling with an underpair to the ace and won't fold.

B. SB must have a losing hand and the whole point of the deal is often he won't.

Also there is a big problem recognizing blanks on this board. I mentioned the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] because another poster gave it as an example of an obvious blank, but actually it's a death card that gives MP the nuts.

Grunch:

I'm playing up to 5/10 these days, and I think this is fine. I'd definitely call a river bet from the SB, but fold if MP overcalls.

If it were just MP, I'd bet a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the turn, but that'd be the last bet I put in.