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  #1  
Old 09-20-2005, 12:27 AM
pergesu pergesu is offline
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Default $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus

A while back I posted some questions about betting impetus. Well this hand came up, and immediately made me think of it.



***** Hand History for Game 2742443346 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:15896912 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Tuesday, September 20, 00:14:06 EDT 2005
Table Table 35064 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: PotStuck ( $1010 )
Seat 3: mikeb1953 ( $820 )
Seat 5: SBchampsx4 ( $2222 )
Seat 7: mjcasale69 ( $1370 )
Seat 8: pattywack85 ( $775 )
Seat 9: mettrack ( $780 )
Seat 10: SutedAcez ( $1023 )
Trny:15896912 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to pattywack85 [ 8d 8h ]
PotStuck folds.
mikeb1953 folds.
SBchampsx4 folds.
mjcasale69 folds.
pattywack85 calls [30].
mettrack calls [15].
SutedAcez folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, Ad, Js ]
mettrack checks.
pattywack85 bets [65].


Some of you guys may look at this and tell me to raise. The reason I didn't is because a few days ago, I read this thread by Strassa where he said he'd be more inclined to limp because if he gets a set he might get some action, rather than raise and pick up the relatively worthless blinds.

Of course the flop came out like what I expected...nothing great, but it probably missed them. It checked to me, and I made the obligatory bet.

Before I made it, I thought to myself that I had betting impetus by virtue of being the last person to VP$IP. Then I wondered if there are different degrees of impetus, like strong or weak I guess. Had I raised preflop, I'd have more impetus than when I just limp. There's no real reason for anyone to fold a jack there, but they might if I raised.

Hopefully this makes some sense. I realize it's a rather unremarkable hand, but I drew upon two ideas that I read recently, and wanted to examine how they relate.
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  #2  
Old 09-20-2005, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus

Sheesh, am I reading it right--you limped, SB completed, and the BB folded anyway. Guess the BB really isn't cooperating with our whole Flop a Set, Stack a Donk plan.

Maybe I'm too tight here, but from the button in level two I will often limp 88 here as well, and even if I don't flop that set I'm confident our position will let us still play the hand well. And that's what happened here: if villain played back at you after your flop bet it's easy to let this one go.

I think I'm using the term too narrowly, but when I think of seizing the "betting impetus," or whatever, I'm doing it because I think it will give me the advantage of momentum on streets that are very likely still to come. For instance a small raise that doesn't rate to win the pot right there, but is more just to put the villan on his heels for the next street.

But if you raise preflop here, I think it's pretty much to avoid seeing the next street. You're raising to take down the blinds with what is likely the best hand preflop. True: A raise here will give you more momentum than a limp, and a standard c-bet following a raise will likely get them to lay down more hands than they would have following a limp. But for my style, blinds on level two with these stacks usually aren't worth that extra edge. I'd rather just make faces at the screen and say snowman snowman snowman right before the flop comes out. And then if I miss the set--like I will 7 in 8 times--I'll still scoop the blinds a decent amount of the time anyway, like when the flop comes ace high and they fold to my bet because my pf limp looked at least as much like Ax as it did 88.
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Old 09-20-2005, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus

Mr. Sir,

While I read your post and respond, could you please change your avater? I am dreadfully afraid of African American rappers
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  #4  
Old 09-20-2005, 01:38 AM
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus

#A. what is a c-bet. And please dont tell me to search for it, i like men.
#B. I feel you are over analysing this common situation, but I dont know why nor am I able to explain my thoughts on this situation because frankly I have no idea what you two just said.
#B. You may or may not be trying to get conversation on a new part of SNG's but you should truely be trying to work on the more meaningful parts of the SNG structure, not the part that will double you up once every 157 SNG's.
#C. Move the [censored] up.
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  #5  
Old 09-20-2005, 01:45 AM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus


Well I definitely raise preflop.
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  #6  
Old 09-20-2005, 01:48 AM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus

Also the blinds are always worth stealing. If you begin a tournament with 45 extra chips, your ROI when compared to starting with just 1000 goes up signifigantly. If you look at it this way you will see that stealing the blinds does matter.

I actually brought this up a long time ago when I posted a theoretical question asking if everyone in the event started with 5 fewer chips and gave them all to you, what would your ROI be assuming you were all of equal skill level. I can't remember what the number was, but it was enough to make me dismiss the argument that stealing the blinds means nothing. I think it was something like 4 - 5% ROI, an obviously signifigant amount.
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  #7  
Old 09-20-2005, 01:57 AM
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus

That's interesting, and I believe you. But would you raise from the cutoff (or from the hijack [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]) with 88 here in level 1? Is the chance of winning those 25 chips worth more than the implied odds of hitting a flop hard? I guess they might be. And then I guess you can also still hit a flop hard even if you raised. Hm, I might be playing this situation too weakly.
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  #8  
Old 09-20-2005, 01:59 AM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus


I would definitely raise with 88 here. Im sure limping isn't terrible, but I still prefer to raise by quite a large margin. Also I have had one of the players call and then still hit a set. In this case the pot is larger and it's quite a bit more likely to get all or more of your money in the pot.
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  #9  
Old 09-20-2005, 02:11 AM
pergesu pergesu is offline
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus

[ QUOTE ]
#B. You may or may not be trying to get conversation on a new part of SNG's but you should truely be trying to work on the more meaningful parts of the SNG structure, not the part that will double you up once every 157 SNG's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so worried about this particular situation (limping with a mid pair on the button), but rather it prompted some questions in me about betting impetus. Which, from what I've read, is a very important concept that I'd like to understand better. I'm just trying to take to heart what eastbay said:

[ QUOTE ]
this game isn't a disconnected infinite grab bag of "what do I do here" questions, but rather just a few principles, once mastered, that answer most questions one could reasonably ask

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #10  
Old 09-20-2005, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: $11 - 88 on button, makes me wonder about betting impetus

OK, I'm convinced, I'll experiment with not open-limping my midpairs so habitually in lvls 1 and 2. Thank you.

And if you have time, could you also please teach me how to do this...

[ QUOTE ]
to get all or more of your money in the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ty
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