Strategies against players who don't give a damn.

johnc · #1 03-21-2005, 03:20 PM

Ran headlong into a very LGP couple nights ago who MO was to cap about 30% of the pf hands he was in, posted live straddles every opportunity, and only folded when he was incredibly behind, but never to aggression per se. These types have put a serious dent in my bankroll lately and have considered moving up to a higher limit where the play is more sane. What are your opinions?

axioma · #2 03-21-2005, 03:34 PM

my opinion is that if you are struggling to beat an obviously very poor opponent, you would be worse off against better opposition.

no offence meant by this, but that attitude is a very irrational one (although also very common).

your variance in a game with a player that you describe may be higher, but so will your win rate over time, once you adapt to his play.

johnc · #3 03-21-2005, 03:55 PM

But how? Have tried tightening up, loosening up, with no real success. I'm get good draws, making them pay heavily to stick around, make them only to get sucked out ie, got my king high straight (flopped) beat by one these types who paired the board 3 and showed down his 93o for a boat!! I know this sounds like the typical bad beat whine but what can you do? They don't respect raises and raising for value can only go so far when you obviously have the nuts and they still hang around. I'm just out of answers.

dr_venkman · #4 03-21-2005, 04:00 PM

Good advice. I started on the $0.01/$0.02 NL tables on Poker Stars. Those tables are pretty much the same as the play money tables, but I learned how to adjust my play accordingly until I was coming out ahead every time I sat down. Then I moved up a level and adjusted again. Moved up and adjusted.

Now I'm doing well on the $50 buy ins and don't plan on going anywhere until I satisfactorily feel that I am dominating this level. When I do, I'll move up and adjust.

I don't want to be a star, I just want to make money. Imagine a game of baseball and you're trying to make the major leagues. You come upon a pitcher who keeps throwing them by you leaving you to swing at air. He throws sliders and fastballs and knuckleballs, changing them up so often you're totally confused. You have two choices, throw your hands in the air and give up, or if you're serious about getting better then you have only once choice... practice until dark every night.

Finding another pitcher isn't the answer; learning how to hit his crazy pitches is. That's the only way to get better.

Good luck

Allinlife · #5 03-21-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But how? Have tried tightening up, loosening up, with no real success. I'm get good draws, making them pay heavily to stick around, make them only to get sucked out ie, got my king high straight (flopped) beat by one these types who paired the board 3 and showed down his 93o for a boat!! I know this sounds like the typical bad beat whine but what can you do? They don't respect raises and raising for value can only go so far when you obviously have the nuts and they still hang around. I'm just out of answers.

[/ QUOTE ]
lOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong rUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

Gbob · #6 03-21-2005, 04:15 PM

Two factors are killing you.

The first one you nailed. Pots are won by forcing the other person off the pot and having better cards. If you can't force them off, you'll lose more hands. The bright side is that if you play the odds and play the cards you'll win more over all.

The next factor is that it's easy against this kind of foe to delude yourself into thinking he never has any good cards. You'll see TPTK and think to yourself that it has to be good because odds are he's not holding crap. You'll put a bunch of money into the pot and wind up paying him off. You'll dwell to much on the bad beats and it'll put you on tilt.

The sad fact is the only way to beat this guy is to wait and play good cards. When the odds are on your side, play it and don't get wrapped up in the bad beats you will take. Over the course of the evening your stack will grow and his will dwindle. Collecting chips is the best revenge.

Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

Goodnews · #7 03-21-2005, 04:33 PM

Alright, since you have such a problem with having the other player sticking around, heres what you do...

Next time you have AA, put it face up, and convince him to play with you.

I hope you enjoy the antes and blinds.

johnc · #8 03-21-2005, 04:33 PM

Thanks for the advice. So you're 2nd point suggests avoiding some otherwise profitable situations altogether because this style is so difficult, if not impossible to read? Seems like I'll miss out on some otherwise profitable situations b/c one one my weapons, betting/raising, is no longer effective.

four2flush · #9 03-21-2005, 04:40 PM

Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

This suggestion is what I needed for a tournement player I just encountered. He is all excited about returning to our Tournaments because they are 'Easy Money'! Looking forward to putting this theory in place to show him how tough easy money can be!

Good Luck All!

grandgnu · #10 03-21-2005, 04:47 PM

You have the nut straight and he catches a lucky boat. In the long run, you want him chasing like that, odds are in your favor.

Believe me, I completely understand how frustrating it can be against someone like this. It just seems they make their crazy hands and suck out on you. But, these other guys are right, you will beat someone like this in the long run. In the short run, they can easily tilt you.

Just had one of those douchebags win my 7-card stud event the other day. The betting structure was pretty agressivee, so his style of betting with nothing forced others out of pots, allowing him to take down some nice chips early on.

One crazy hand he had a 5 on board with an 8/4 in the hole (nothing suited). Another player who was shorter stacked raised it up (had a Q showing and a Q in the hole). The crazy stated he didn't have anything, but called anyway. He pairs his 5 but the other guy pairs his Q.

The other guy winds up getting all his money in with trip Queens vs. a pair of 5's and a very unlikely straight draw. The next card gives the crazy his third 5, and the next card after that gives him quad 5's. Unbelievable. Now he thinks he's gods gift to poker because of this unreal luck that he had. But that will keep him coming back and putting his money in.

This same kid thinks he can get a 3% edge in roulette by betting on 10 numbers each time and winning 1 in 4 times (35-1 payout for hitting once vs. putting 40-1 money in)

He just doesn't have a clue, he's so moronic I want to slit my wrists. But he'll pay you off when you do have a hand. He just can't help but to bet and bet and bet.

they always assume anyone betting into them is bluffing, they always have to see the flop (i.e. they'll call an all-in pre-flop with something like 9/2 suited) and if they catch a pair, any pair (board could be K/Q/6 and they have bottom pair) they just won't fold (their thinking is "well, I might hit trips!")