150-300 J6s sb

[glen]

"I'm not a huge fan of the call in the SB but you are definitely getting your price if you are sure the BB is calling. "

can you explain what you mean by "getting your price?"

[Doubling12]

Playing devil's advocate - at least in a full game, you can have good relative position. Here, the hero has the worst position and the worst position relative to the preflop raiser. Having the button play less aggressively is bad in an implied odds sense, if you flop middle or bottom pair and decide ahead of time to call it down, which is what happened.

[Mikey]

i honestly think this preflop play is okay, only for the pure fact that if you can get your opponents to think you are a player, they'll fear you even more and be apt to semi-bluff you less, fearing that you won't fold especially with a call such as J6s.

Now when the flop comes I like the flop bet, but I honestly think that you should either lead bet the turn or checkraise the turn. Because a King turned, it makes it less likely that either of them have it.


I don't understand why you are checking and calling.

[William Jockusch]

pardon my ignorance
can you enlighten me on the structure of this game? How big are the chips? How big is the SB?

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Here, the hero has the worst position and the worst position relative to the preflop raiser

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot to mention the worst hand.

If they weren't suited, would you play them?

If not, you shouldn't play them here, out of position for a raise. They're suitedness cannot compensate for the fact that you're likely well behind, holding garbage, and playing from out of position against two players who seem to like their hands.

A good indication of this fact would be the fact that you're about to pay off with your lousy second pair. Sure, you might pick up the pot once in awhile, but it sure doesn't look like +EV preflop against most tough players.

I say muck 'em preflop.

[sthief09]

I can't imagine he's betting the river into 2 people with a hand equal to or worse than J-no kicker. for one, he probably wasn't bluffing/semibluffing the turn, because A high would probably rather take a free card, and a hand like TT would probably bet the turn adn take the free showdown. that river really smells like a value bet. With a hand like Ax or an 8 that has showdown value on this board, I can't imagine he'd bet. people tend to either value bet or bluff in spots like this, and a bluff in his spot is just stupid.

I don't quite get the semi-coldcall with that trash, but you're beyond this preflop stuff, so I'm assuming you had a good reason that's not worth discussing.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick observation that this hand is a good example of why I think kickers are way more important with 2nd pair than with top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

is it because 2nd pair, no kicker is the bottom end of the spectrum for value bets?

[andyfox]

Well, he might not have the worst hand. And even if he's up against, say A-Q and a small pocket pair, he's going to win close to one time in three. mike said this is a good game and that the button is an "okay" player. mike is a lot better than just okay. And if it's a good game, that must mean bb is a bad player, which seems to be confirmed by his having telegraphed his pre-flop intention before mike acted.

FWIW, twodimes shows mike winning 28.92% of the time with Jc-6c against A-Qo and 5-5, 25.72 with J-6o against the same two hands. Knowing the bb was going to call, mike's getting 3.5:1 on his preflop call. The question, I guess, is whether mike will be able to use his superior skills with J-6 out of position to make this clearly +EV.

[Gabe]

and why kickers are more important with J's than with K's.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, he might not have the worst hand. And even if he's up against, say A-Q and a small pocket pair, he's going to win close to one time in three. mike said this is a good game and that the button is an "okay" player. mike is a lot better than just okay. And if it's a good game, that must mean bb is a bad player, which seems to be confirmed by his having telegraphed his pre-flop intention before mike acted.

FWIW, twodimes shows mike winning 28.92% of the time with Jc-6c against A-Qo and 5-5, 25.72 with J-6o against the same two hands. Knowing the bb was going to call, mike's getting 3.5:1 on his preflop call. The question, I guess, is whether mike will be able to use his superior skills with J-6 out of position to make this clearly +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's some pretty good perspective.

If he's getting 3.5:1, and he's 28% to have the best hand by the river, I guess you're right, the question is whether his superior skill can outweigh the positional disadvantage.