TT gets capped.

[SlantNGo]

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I think you have almost no fold equity against a capping range and raising the turn by no means gets us a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on the fold equity... the only hands that might potentially fold is JJ. Why don't you think we'll get a free showdown though? If we get 3-bet, it's an easy fold, and if he only calls, he's not betting that river very often. The only purpose behind the raise is if he would not bet the river with AK. Raising the turn would allow us to get 2 bets from him with AK.

That being said, I don't think that a turn raise is the way to go either. Just calling down seems fine.

[SL__72]

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I like how this hand was played out.

Flop raise either does two things. One, it slows down an UI AK and scared JJ (which we want, since it's 50/50 on being WA/WB), and Two, Hands like QQ/KK/AA/overplayed AQ are either:

A. 3-betting us and we can fold safely

[/ QUOTE ]
folding to a flop 3-bet is terrible.

i didn't address it in my post - but the flop raise is pretty pointless. sometimes the hands that will slow down to your flop raise (AK/JJ) will give you a free turn anyway. also when you raise and get 3-bet, you're going to have to make a very slim call on the turn with implied odds on your gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you nailed it there.

When he 3-bets the flop I'm calling the turn and folding the river UI.

When I call I'm probably always seeing showdown unless an A/K hits and I don't improve, in which case I'm folding the river...

[sean c]

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I think you have almost no fold equity against a capping range and raising the turn by no means gets us a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on the fold equity... the only hands that might potentially fold is JJ. Why don't you think we'll get a free showdown though? If we get 3-bet, it's an easy fold, and if he only calls, he's not betting that river very often. The only purpose behind the raise is if he would not bet the river with AK. Raising the turn would allow us to get 2 bets from him with AK.

That being said, I don't think that a turn raise is the way to go either. Just calling down seems fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the straight draw + set outs i think we have to call a 3-bet which is why i don't like the free showdown play here.

[SlantNGo]

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With the straight draw + set outs i think we have to call a 3-bet which is why i don't like the free showdown play here.

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Wow, you are 100% correct on that... it will be 11:1 so we would definitely have to call another bet. Call down it is.

[Sykes]

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I like how this hand was played out.

Flop raise either does two things. One, it slows down an UI AK and scared JJ (which we want, since it's 50/50 on being WA/WB), and Two, Hands like QQ/KK/AA/overplayed AQ are either:

A. 3-betting us and we can fold safely

[/ QUOTE ]
folding to a flop 3-bet is terrible.

i didn't address it in my post - but the flop raise is pretty pointless. sometimes the hands that will slow down to your flop raise (AK/JJ) will give you a free turn anyway. also when you raise and get 3-bet, you're going to have to make a very slim call on the turn with implied odds on your gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you nailed it there.

When he 3-bets the flop I'm calling the turn and folding the river UI.

When I call I'm probably always seeing showdown unless an A/K hits and I don't improve, in which case I'm folding the river...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bleh, Ignore my previous post. Calling down is the only correct move, as long as he will fire with an UI AK on the turn most of the time. If he doesn't, folding the turn becomes correct.

Once you raise the flop, you give yourself the correct odds to call down to river to hit gutshot/set AS LONG AS YOU RAISE THE SET/STRAIGHT. If you don't do this, then calling the turn is -EV.

[David04]

Looks good. Call a bet on any non A or K river. A lot of players will bluff at the pot after seeing you check behind on the turn.

[Shillx]

Does anyone dislike the flop raise?

Yeah the flop raise sucks. Stop making these kinds of raises when you are behind the villians range and don't have any fold equity.

This hand was totally butchered with the flop raise and turn check. You have to bet the turn in this spot as our hand is now the favorite against his range (you have to give more weight to AK here). You are missing too much value to not bet here and you might possibly be giving him a free card if he has the intention of sometimes folding to a turn bet.

Brad

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone dislike the flop raise?

Yeah the flop raise sucks. Stop making these kinds of raises when you are behind the villians range and don't have any fold equity.

This hand was totally butchered with the flop raise and turn check. You have to bet the turn in this spot as our hand is now the favorite against his range (you have to give more weight to AK here). You are missing too much value to not bet here and you might possibly be giving him a free card if he has the intention of sometimes folding to a turn bet.

Brad

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You can't say we have no fold equity and then say we have to bet the turn because there's a chance he folds.

*edit I like the raise knowing that villian plays too many hands. A raise defines villians hand. We have no idea that villian isn't capable of capping ONLY AA AK KK QQ JJ. All we know is that WE'RE incapable of doing it without these hands.

EDIT again. I do agree that a turn check is a crime. You have to bet here.

[Shillx]

You can't say we have no fold equity and then say we have to bet the turn because there's a chance he folds.

Sure I can. Let's say that there is a 99% chance that we will get 3-bet on the flop (and he will have 70% equity) and a 1% chance that he will call and check to us on the turn. If he does check to us on the turn, he will always fold a hand with 30% equity if we bet (pot is ~7 BB). This is an extreme example, but it shows exactly what I'm trying to get across. It is clearly wrong to raise the flop in this example, but it is crucial that you bet the turn if you do happen to raise the flop and get checked too.

We got a favorable outcome here (i.e. we got lucky unless he is trying to c/r us) and we have to take advantage of it. Don't compound one error on top of another.

Brad

[lautzutao]

Alright, makes sense. If there's no Overcard on this flop do you still make the case for just calling?