Good/Bad Laydowns?

cartoonsoldier · #1 08-20-2004, 03:33 AM

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (15 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

No reads.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (7 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 4 BB
Main Pot: 3.50 BB, won by UTG+1.
Pot 2: 0.50 BB, returned to UTG+1.

Not enough players to call right?

Thanks.

helpmeout · #2 08-20-2004, 06:28 AM

First hand is a crazy fold, what do you expect BB to have? QQ KK or AA would definately cap the betting preflop and you'd have to be insane to call with low suited connectors or even a low pocket pair.

I'd put one on a pair of 7s and the other on a flush draw.

Hand 2 you can only hope for an A as your J would probably be beat by a K. So yes the fold is correct.

crockett · #3 08-20-2004, 07:48 AM

My views:

Personally, where I am at my game. I love your laydown in the first hand. The reason I like it is because it is very hard thing to do yet you did it. I don’t know if it is the right thing to do but it is what I would like to do. Your getting good odds but I do not think good enough to chase a J. I believe BB won the hand with 2 pair, probably 74, UTG+1 showed a large pair that he never hit and made a mistake you did not, and my feeling is that MP1 finally layed down his over cards…possibly AK, AQ.

The second hand I’m not so sure I agree with you on this one. You were looking at 8:1 and had one person behind you to act. You had about 4.5 outs (3 A’s and 1.5 for the backdoor flush). For me it would have been a coin flip because most of the time the person behind you will call as well in these loose games. But nonetheless good laydown, better hands and opportunities will be coming soon.

roundhouse · #4 08-20-2004, 08:06 AM

Hand 1: Bad
Cap the flop and lead the betting all the way, unless you're raised on the turn in which case go into check-call mode; expect to showdown the best 2 pair.

Hand 2: Good
You're out of position and likely drawing to 2 outs. Different if the flopped K had been [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] rather than [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] of course.

RH

flair1239 · #5 08-20-2004, 09:37 AM

1st hand: The BB betting could mean alot of things, maybe a flush draw. The raise from UTG1 could have been to limit the field or maybe he has a set of 7s, right now you don't know, and the pot is HUGE. You are getting 30-1 to call, Your odds of making a set of Jacks are 22-1. This is an easy call, even though the J of diamonds might make a flush, I still think you have to count it, also there is no guarantee that you are behind right now, and you almost certainly are not drawing dead even if you are behind.. I don't know about capping; because if you don't hit your set you are going to want people to fold on the turn. I don't think that capping does anything to improve your chances of winning.

That said the pot was laying proper odds to call, the only thing that you are drawing dead too at this point is the 56; even then if you make your set on the turn, you would have a 10 out redraw to a FH.

2nd hand:

This is a much closer call. You have a backdoor nut flush draw, a very ragged backdoor straight draw, and an overcard. It depends on how strongly you feel about your overcard. In this case I would say the A is a clean out for you. UTG1 limped in, he did not raise, so If he does have a King, he does not have a very good kicker, otherwise he probably would have raised PF. Also he bet into (7) people, that means he is not necessaruly trying to eliminate anyone. If I had to guess, he was betting a flush draw. You might have had the best hand still. I think it would have been worth at least a call.

There is a case to be made for raising. Even though on this site many people frown on raising for information, I like to do it. If he is on a flush draw he would probably just call your raise. If he does have a set or 2pair, he will reraise, you can then call and check fold the turn unimproved.

I think your A was probably good in this hand.

Now keep in mind I am not against folding; if somebody had raised before the betting got to you, yeah chuck this hand in a second. But that (1) bet tells you nothing about this guys hand. (unless you are very familiar with his play and have a read on him.)

Good hands to post by the way.

crockett · #6 08-20-2004, 09:51 AM

Excellent analysis. I orginally thought he was facing 2 bets on the flop giving him 13.5:1.

I'm just learning to calculate pot odds...I keep coming up with 27 bets in the pot when he makes his decision. Were just using 30-1 as rough estimate or am I missing something here?

flair1239 · #7 08-20-2004, 09:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent analysis. I orginally thought he was facing 2 bets on the flop giving him 13.5:1.

I'm just learning to calculate pot odds...I keep coming up with 27 bets in the pot when he makes his decision. Were just using 30-1 as rough estimate or am I missing something here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I misscounted I think it is 29.

Fiery Jack · #8 08-20-2004, 12:52 PM

In hand #1 I can't think what made you fold, there are many hands the player could have quite reasonably 3-bet with that are still behind JJ at this point.
For example A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

In hand #2 I'd often give it up too; but reluctantly.

cartoonsoldier · #9 08-20-2004, 03:34 PM

Thanks for the replies.

For hand 1, my analysis went that the PF raiser I had beat but everyone else waked up especially UTG+1 who cold-called PF both the raises. I was thinking someone has a set and was farily sure my J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] out might not be good enough and hence I folded.

Eventually, the hand was won by BB who got quad 3s and UTG+1 had A7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]