Data-mining's threat to online poker

[I_Robot]

Data-mining in online poker – the ability to automatically collect, store, and analyze the play of potential opponents – is a threat to the game. If allowed to continue, online poker will diverge further and further from the B & M game and discourage new and existing players from playing. Poker sites should no longer cooperate with software vendors that require access to their data stream for analytical tools.

Automated analytical software for online play, like many things, started innocently enough. Poker Tracker just automated the tracking that many players already did for themselves and added some very powerful analytical tools for self-improvement. The next logical step of using the same analysis for other players – even when not even involved in the game – is what has taken this practice to the point of being dangerous for the game.

A great example of how this is done can be found here:

http://www.bet-the-pot.com/index.php...position=26:26

When used as described above, online poker becomes more about automation, and less about human capabilities. I want online poker to mimic the game I find in a real poker room. Data-mining software makes that less likely.

Poker sites that allow access to their data streams need to reconsider their decision. If online poker gets the reputation of being the playground of the computer geek rather than the poker player, this venue will cease to exist.

[nsdjoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I want online poker to mimic the game I find in a real poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I want online poker to make me as much money as possible.

[DMBFan23]

I could care less about datamining other players, but being able to keep track of my own play has been instrumental

[O Doyle Rules]

Interesting post! This also ties into my post about non-PokerTracker sites being more fishier.

I think Robot is on to something. It could very well be in player's long term interest to be anti-PokerTracker, anti-datamining, anti-playerview, etc., etc., etc.,

Sure, all these things could make one more profitable for the short run, but what about the long term health of the online game?

[Guruman]

While I disagree that datamining can kill online poker, I do agree that it changes the game significantly from the live version. Raw numbers will only tell a potential foe so much about your style of play though, and most of the relevant info is pre-flop.

Every good poker player makes his money by outplaying opponents post-flop live or online. If you see the raw numbers generated from my hand histories before playing me, you'll get a general idea for how aggresive I can be - but you know nothing about the situations in which I like to be aggressive.

Your mined dataset will not reveal to you the fact that I like to raise pre-flop with the T9 of hearts but not the T9 of spades as a randomizer. It won't tell you that I use the second hand on my watch to randomize whether I'll raise 2 or 4 x the big blinds with my big pairs. Even if it did, you couldn't predict me there.

these are all standard poker player techniques that work just as well live as they do online, and no amount of datamining can beat them.

Also - if I know that you've been datamining me, and I know what my stats look like, then this gives me a great amount of insight into how you might play me.

Ex: Say I know that I have an overly tight VP$IP recently because I've been weathering a run of bad cards for a month or so. I was tight before, so now I look too tight and I know this. I also know that you've datamined my info.

Now I can raise with anything when it's just you and me in the hand, because a raise from a person who you consider to be a rock should be scary as hell against all but the best holdings.

Presto! I've turned my stats into another weapon that I can use against you.

Datamining won't kill online poker. Bots could, but we've not seen that become an issue just yet. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[UATrewqaz]

I disagree for the following reason.

Fish are fish, they are stupid and play bad because they have no interest in being anything other than fish.

All those terrible players on PP could go to the local bookstore and buy SSHE or ToP and dramatically improve overnight. The $30 they spent on books would be made up extremely quickly (even if by losing much slower).

Do people do this? No. Do people chase gutshot straight draws with 4 of a suit on the board in a small pot? Yes, even though it's completely idiotic to do so.

Basically what I'm saying is this, your average fish doesn't CARE that you have more skill, more experience, more book knowledge, and won't care if you have a software edge as well.

Fish - 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Board - A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

"I can call the $1 river bet because if I get another 6 I could very well win the $3 in the pot."

Stupidity like that can't be shaken by logicial arguments like the one you presented. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[emonrad87]

[ QUOTE ]
I want online poker to mimic the game I find in a real poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you also want to get only 35 hands/hr, be able to play only 1 table and have to pay higher rake along with tokes?

Oh, and you neglect that a lot of time you play the same people over and over across different sessions live, whereas online its super anonymous. Because of this, you get a lot better reads live than online anyway.

[bobbyi]

When I sit down at a table in a cardroom, my opponents are not faceless circles with strings of characters like "MrPoker9871" and nothing else like they are when you play online without any data. They are humans with personalities and tendencies that I can exploit. Their actions have meaning because I have some context for them. Having data on your opponents gives you that context. It makes it more similar to the experience of playing live poker.

[skoal2k4]

FRANKS AND BEANS!!

[checkmate36]

UATrewqaz hit the nail on the head with his post.

Fish are stupid so make money off of stupid people [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]