Starting Hands ?!*%$#@??

[JoeMiner]

Howdy All,

This is my first post, I've been playing for about a year at various cardrooms. Playing $3/$6 mainly. I've read several books that give starting hand recomendations but more often it seems that I'm missing some pots. Perfect example last night...I'm in MP, loose table of 8 lots of raising with garbage, myself folding 6 previous hands pre-flop, and I get 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I fold to a raise from UTG+1, then of course the flop comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with lots of betting & raising , with eventual winner showing the nut flush A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I really felt like I missed huge on this one and was a poor laydown. Of course we've all been on the other side of the fence when holding such a hand with the flop coming all paint. And it seemed like I was on that wrong side of the fence most of that session.

I guess my question or what I could use advice on is: What can you do to avoid missing out on monster flops when your holdings are mediocre? Especially in a loose agressive environment.

Thanks Much

[Vollycat]

I think you need to look at what would your average will be if you played all 85s cards. Say you won that pot, which more than likely would have been big, say even 30BB. OK, how many BB are you going to lose to hit that straight flush with 85s again (not to mention someone holding the same suit AT)?? IMO--grin and bear it. Yes, you may have to loosen your starting hands a little in a loose game, but be a little reasonable with just how loose you are going to get. I wouldn't lose any sleep over that hand other than hey, it's a great story. <--completely my opinion of course!

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
I get 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I fold to a raise from UTG+1
[...]
I really felt like I missed huge on this one and was a poor laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, just awful. You should always play 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a raise. What were you thinking?

[Fabian]

"I really felt like I missed huge on this one and was a poor laydown"

This is the part of your thinking you need to change to improve your poker playing, because it simply is wrong, it was NOT a poor laydown. If someone offers you double money on a coin flip (you win $2 if you win, you lose $1 if you lose), you don't regret taking the bet even if you lose that time, do you? Or rather, you shouldn't regret it because it was correct to take it, it had a positive expected value (or EV), meaning you make money out of it in the long run (if the bet was repeated a large number of times). In your example with 8-5 suited, if you would call that raise that call would have a negative EV, meaning you lose money in the long run by always making it. Thus, it's incorrect to call this every time, even though some time you will flop a straight flush or something else good and win a large pot. When that happens, just think to yourself "well I made the right decision because calling would be -EV so I don't regret folding".

I recommend 2+2 book Theory of Poker by David Sklansky, and also Ed Miller's Small Stakes Holdem. Excellent books to read if you want to become a better player. Good luck.

[KowCiller]

To sum up what everyone else has been saying about this, I'll say: Try your best to avoid results-oriented thinking.

Selective memory is not your friend.

KoW

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]

I guess my question or what I could use advice on is: What can you do to avoid missing out on monster flops when your holdings are mediocre? Especially in a loose agressive environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple months ago, I bought this sweet-ass crystal ball on Ebay for $70. Since then, my win-rate has nearly doubled. You should see the looks on their faces when I raise UTG with 72o and then flop a full house...

ML4L

[ML4L]

Hey Joe,

Just so I don't drive a potential forum contributor away with my sarcasm (as I have in the past...).

As frustrating as it is to fold a winner (especially if the pot would have been large), you have to remind yourself how much you will lose in the long run if you play that hand from MP in an aggressive game, especially for a raise. Here's an exercise you can do. Every time you get 85s, fold it (as you should) and then note what happens. It shouldn't take more than a couple months for you to see that, if you played that hand every time you got it, you would lose much more than you would have won in that single, monster pot.

The beauty of hold 'em is that any two cards can win. This is part of what makes bad players make bad decisions. Keep reading the books and start posting hands on this forum, and you'll do just fine.

Good luck.

ML4L

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Howdy All,

I get 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I fold to a raise from UTG+1, then of course the flop comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with lots of betting & raising , with eventual winner showing the nut flush A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I really felt like I missed huge on this one and was a poor laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's make this clear. This is not a "laydown." This is a fold, and a good one at that. A laydown would be throwing away something like AT or KJ in this spot. If you consistently play 85s after an EP raise, you'll lose more money than you could have made when the flop hits.

Good fold, tough break.

[Grisgra]

I never fold a hand when I know I'm going to flop a straight flush. What the hell were you thinking?

[JoeMiner]

Your sarcasm caused a bit of a smile [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] but I do appreciate your more thought out response.