K8s OOP

#1 10-29-2005, 09:41 AM

Only second orbit. 

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Nick Royale · #2 10-29-2005, 09:57 AM

I'm not sure about the flop since the board is coordinated, I think check/calling might be fine because of the bdfd. You could also bet this flop and play the rest of the hand with caution.

Check/fold this turn.

Aaron_ · #3 10-29-2005, 10:20 AM

I can't give this hand more than 4 outs if UTG is a solid player. Getting 9 to 1, maybe consider laying this down on the flop?

If not, definately check/fold the turn.

bozlax · #4 10-29-2005, 11:47 AM

Morning, Kwaz. I hate these hands a lot. The only way I hate this hand worse is if the flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Problem is, I look at this and say, "The only hand that's got me beat that wouldn't raise preflop is K9." Of course, that's not true...ugh.

I bet this flop. If more than 1 comes with me, I call down. If it's HU, I'll fire on the turn and river. I fold to a raise.

Guruman · #5 10-29-2005, 12:39 PM

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If it's HU, I'll fire on the turn and river. I fold to a raise.

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I don't think I like that.

If you bet out and get it headsup, checking will tell you more about where you are then betting will.

By leading the turn, you're putting yourself in the position of possibly having to fold the best hand when 9To decides to raise and "find out where he's at". You may also get raised by an OESD or fl draw on a semibluff. checking this turn does not put you at risk of folding the best hand.

Checking this turn also collects bets from any paired J or T, lots of worse kings, and mid pocket pairs. It also allows you to check/call a diamond river, which would much more difficult to do if the turn action was bet/call.

If the turn gets checked through then you can pretty safely check/fold the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the river. You also get the chance to spike a K or 8 for free so you can check/call or bet/call (depending on the player).

bozlax · #6 10-29-2005, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet out and get it headsup, checking will tell you more about where you are then betting will.

By leading the turn, you're putting yourself in the position of possibly having to fold the best hand when 9To decides to raise and "find out where he's at". You may also get raised by an OESD or fl draw on a semibluff. checking this turn does not put you at risk of folding the best hand.

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Hmmm. What is checking the turn going to tell you when you're bet into HU? It's Villan-dependent...the same guy that's going to mistakenly raise the turn with T9 for information or an OESD or FD on a semi-bluff is going to bet those same hands when checked to.

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Checking this turn also collects bets from any paired J or T, lots of worse kings, and mid pocket pairs.

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When they check behind you? Doesn't that LOSE bets?

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It also allows you to check/call a diamond river, which would much more difficult to do if the turn action was bet/call.

If the turn gets checked through then you can pretty safely check/fold the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the river. You also get the chance to spike a K or 8 for free so you can check/call or bet/call (depending on the player).

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I'm going to have a hard time calling a bet or raise on the river if an ace fell, regardless of the turn action. And, again, the turn action wouldn't be bet/call, it'd be bet/fold unless the Villan was nutty aggro.

I guess I just don't see the point in check/call on the turn and check/fold on the river UI. If you're drawing to 5 outs, you don't have the odds to play the flop. I'm going from the presumption that we have the best hand until I'm told otherwise.

Guruman · #7 10-29-2005, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm. What is checking the turn going to tell you when you're bet into HU? It's Villan-dependent...the same guy that's going to mistakenly raise the turn with T9 for information or an OESD or FD on a semi-bluff is going to bet those same hands when checked to.

[/ QUOTE ] I think that the info comes from the times it gets checked through. I agree that many of the same people that raise this flop will bet if checked to. The difference is that the check/call line gets us to the river where we can reevaluate, and leaves us in no danger of folding the best hand.

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Checking this turn also collects bets from any paired J or T, lots of worse kings, and mid pocket pairs.

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When they check behind you? Doesn't that LOSE bets?

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My assertion was that these guys will bet the turn if checked to. At least that's been my experience lately. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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I guess I just don't see the point in check/call on the turn and check/fold on the river UI. If you're drawing to 5 outs, you don't have the odds to play the flop. I'm going from the presumption that we have the best hand until I'm told otherwise.

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I think that the river line is highly dependant on the actual river card here. If I improve or if a blank falls, it's check/call. Aces, straights, and flushes lean it to a check/fold.

regardless, we don't get to make that decision if we folded on the turn with the best hand.

Aaron W. · #8 10-29-2005, 02:59 PM

After the check-call on the flop, you need to bet the turn.

Guruman · #9 10-29-2005, 03:18 PM

back to how the hand was actually played. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I think that I like checking this flop and seeing what develops. If it gets checked around, so be it. If a late position bets, you can then raise and limit the field. If it comes back two to you, you can safely fold.

Given that utg bet into this field after openlimping UTG, what range are we putting him on? I think that the only hands we're ahead of here are lower pocket pairs, and depending on how loose he is, a lot of his range may have hit this flop. It takes much stronger cards to limp utg than to come in after him, so I wonder if we can even find a fold on the flop? hmmmm, probably not.

imported_Reaction · #10 10-30-2005, 03:59 AM

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You could also bet this flop and play the rest of the hand with caution

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