easy kk fold??? 3 to 1 on my money - Page 3

scrapperdog · #21 12-06-2005, 05:09 PM

I am one of the people in this forum that has folded kings pre-flop.

I dont have a problem with it if you know the person that re-raised very well and they know you very well. A few of the regular players that I played against back in the day were good enough to know I would only re-raise a re-raise big like that with AA-KK. These are players that I have played many hundreds of hours with at the table, and the good ones flat out knew better than to come over the top of my large 3 bet with QQ. For them to come over the top means they had to have aces. And more than once they mucked KK pre flop against my aces and showed it to me.

However, you seem to be basing you fold on magic. You knew you had kings before you looked at the cards? You prayed not to get KK? You knew the other guy had aces? This is not hand reading this is voodoo.

the machine · #22 12-06-2005, 05:13 PM

thanks for the post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

the machine · #23 12-06-2005, 05:17 PM

my fold wasnt based on that. it was kinda scarry that it actually happened that way because once he raised its what went on in my head. i said hell probably have aa and ill wake up to kk, and i seriously thought that thats what happened. my fold wasnt based on it. what hand would a logical/solid/rational (whatever you want to call it) player give you 3 to 1 on with all their chips in the middle after his raise, reraise, and a reraise, OOP. it has to be aa or kk and i have 2 kings so its easy to put him on aces. thats what the fold was based on as well as pot odds which you can read in other posts cause im not writing it all again.

wdeadwyler · #24 12-06-2005, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my fold wasnt based on that. it was kinda scarry that it actually happened that way because once he raised its what went on in my head. i said hell probably have aa and ill wake up to kk, and i seriously thought that thats what happened. my fold wasnt based on it. what hand would a logical/solid/rational (whatever you want to call it) player give you 3 to 1 on with all their chips in the middle after his raise, reraise, and a reraise, OOP. it has to be aa or kk and i have 2 kings so its easy to put him on aces. thats what the fold was based on as well as pot odds which you can read in other posts cause im not writing it all again.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way this guy playing 1-2 live planned his raise amounts to get into the middle giving you 3-1. I still think you are giving him way too much credit, and still think this is a textbook call.

the machine · #25 12-06-2005, 05:22 PM

maybe so. im sure it wasnt planned that way. ive been told i think too high of a limit for 1 2 but still with everything said i thought it was the correct fold and i respect your opinion

kurto · #26 12-06-2005, 05:31 PM

2 things-
1) You're leaving a lot of info out about why you think he has aces before you even looked at your hand. He raised 6x... was this out of the norm? Did he normally limp with Kings? I've seen 1 or 2 people who NEVER raise unless its aces or kings. If its not those guys... I don't see how you can put him on one and only one hand when all he's done is open the betting.

IF you clearly put him on aces... why the hell did you raise? Clearly you didn't believe your own read.

2) Here's the biggie... how can your raise to $75... then fold to $75 more, especially since you're certain UTG has aces? Think of it...

If you fold, you're left with $152 and no chance to improve.
If you call, and you're right... you are likely way ahead of MP3... perhaps as high as a 4-1 favorite. around 80% of the time, you win the side pot and you're left with $150 ($2 less then if you call)
approx 10% of the time, you'll hit a set and scoop... meaning 10% of the time you win a $606 dollar pot.
approx 10% of the time mp3 might scoop and you lose it all.

This doesn't even take into account the times your read is wrong and you're ahead of them both...

I think that was a bad fold.

Finite_Risk · #27 12-06-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2 things-
1) You're leaving a lot of info out about why you think he has aces before you even looked at your hand. He raised 6x... was this out of the norm? Did he normally limp with Kings? I've seen 1 or 2 people who NEVER raise unless its aces or kings. If its not those guys... I don't see how you can put him on one and only one hand when all he's done is open the betting.

IF you clearly put him on aces... why the hell did you raise? Clearly you didn't believe your own read.

2) Here's the biggie... how can your raise to $75... then fold to $75 more, especially since you're certain UTG has aces? Think of it...

If you fold, you're left with $152 and no chance to improve.
If you call, and you're right... you are likely way ahead of MP3... perhaps as high as a 4-1 favorite. around 80% of the time, you win the side pot and you're left with $150 ($2 less then if you call)
approx 10% of the time, you'll hit a set and scoop... meaning 10% of the time you win a $606 dollar pot.
approx 10% of the time mp3 might scoop and you lose it all.

This doesn't even take into account the times your read is wrong and you're ahead of them both...

I think that was a bad fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice analysis - totally agree.

wdeadwyler · #28 12-06-2005, 05:43 PM

Kurto said what I said only better. Nice.

the machine · #29 12-06-2005, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're leaving a lot of info out about why you think he has aces before you even looked at your hand. He raised 6x... was this out of the norm? Did he normally limp with Kings? I've seen 1 or 2 people who NEVER raise unless its aces or kings. If its not those guys... I don't see how you can put him on one and only one hand when all he's done is open the betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was a feeling at first then the push sealed it for me that he had aa, tight player hasnt been out of line at all. tight. i raise to find out where im at pf.......

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the biggie... how can your raise to $75... then fold to $75 more, especially since you're certain UTG has aces? Think of it...

[/ QUOTE ]

it wasnt a fold to 75 more it was a fold of 150 more. mp3 pushed with 550, so i put 75 main and 75 side. calling this had 0 EV because i cant make anything more then i have i can only lose the money i still have in front of me (with the given side pot) now yes i have the chance to scoop or dump the main pot which is what i thought about and i just didnt like it with the given odds if my hands that i thought others had were ball park. think about all this this way. 0 in the pot. you have aa your opponent has aa he pushes for same amount you have and your not invested in the pot, (hypothetical no blind game) also you see he has aa. all you can do is suck out get sucked out on or break even. same idea here. me being ahead of mp3 does nothing for me with my stack size because of the amount that has to go into the side pot. i know im ahead but IF i beat him i only get back what i had in front of me. with a small chance to scoop and a small chance to get sucked out on. i decided to stick with the fold and not risk the chips.... also why pump up the good player 75 more and let the donk lose 75 more id rather have him have more money and get in with him later

if my read was wrong i kick myself in the rear and say keep working on your reads and just play kk for all my chips everytime pf..... like i have so many times in the past knowing someone had aa but i couldnt release kk

i do like your thinking about the hand though. the chance to win it all or lose the little left may be a good shot here. guess i just didnt want to risk it. thanks for the post

the machine · #30 12-06-2005, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As for your other point, if we assume that you will break even by stacking MP 4/5 of the time, and suckout on UTG 1/5 of the time, then is this a neutral ev call? (This analysis is very rudimentary and poor).

[/ QUOTE ]

no neutral ev on side pot becuase i cant win any more then i have left behind me which is what i think i am ahead on. give away 75 and take back 75 no real point in the call. i can only suck out to win the whole main and get sucked out on to lose the side